Mass shooting in Vegas

superman27344 said:
I would say those people ....... are the types that do this.
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Where's your data on that? Because it's not the case for Omar Mateen; Pulse night club, Syed Farook; San Bernardino, Aaron Alexis; Washington Navy Yard, Adam Lanza; Sandyhook, Nidal Malik Hasan; Ft Hood, Seung-Hui Cho; VT...etc and on and on

These people either had a terrorist agenda on their mind and died to be a part of something, or were just fucking looney.

Those paranoid fookers YOU'RE talking about don't generally snap (at least the data doesn't show it) and unleash the fury of their potential on the innocent. They usually spend their time like most internet trolls; talking a big game but actually DOING nothing
 
I wasnt going off data, I was just as most of us do on this forum and other, stating an opinion. To further expain my opinion I will say this, crazy people are the ones that do crazy things. It would be great if all they ever did was play internet troll and never leave the safety of their keyboards, but sometimes they do. Some of those people you mentioned had previously made crazy statements online, maybe not what you consider tin foil hat statements, but crazy statements nonetheless.
 
CasterTroy said:
Omar Mateen; Pulse night club, Syed Farook; San Bernardino, Aaron Alexis; Washington Navy Yard, Adam Lanza; Sandyhook, Nidal Malik Hasan; Ft Hood, Seung-Hui Cho; VT...
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Reading all their backgrounds, it would seem that paranoia is commonality to one extent or another. That and also being a bit of a loner.

Navy Yard shooter Aaron Alexis driven by delusions

Omar Mateen: Everything we know so far about Orlando gunman

Who were Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik? - CNN

Seung-Hui Cho

Nidal Hasan - Wikipedia

Adam Lanza
 
I think if you look hard enough, you could find signs/traits in just about anybody that could correlate to a terrible deed, just depends on how paranoid you want to be about it. But I do believe the ones that actually follow through have a lot more warning signs than the average Joe, but loved ones just don't want to see it and justify it. That's why when they're interviewed you never hear about what a horse shit person someone was, it's always 'I had no idea they were capable of X atrocity, they were such a loving husband/father/friend/coworker/etc'. But from the outside looking in, who couldn't tell what the Columbine kids were up to??? Hell, how many of our loved ones would question us if we started loading up on firearms or ammo??? Or told our wife we had to 'go on a business trip for a few days'. Last time I was out at Mackey's they had a couple full autos, wife told me to buy one if I wanted it so badly...didn't, but that wouldn't have raised a red flag. Went to a gun show a couple weekends ago, blew a couple grand there, when I got home...the wife just rolled her eyes at me. Does any of that mean I'm unstable, not necessarily, but hindsight is always 20/20 and the pieces can be made to fit.
 
Well it looks like now they are reporting he had a bump stock or SlideFire attachment. When I first saw the videos and heard reports monday morning of "automatic gunfire" one of my first thoughts was, I wonder if he had a slideFire. Based on his initial profiling and reports of .223 and .308, it seemed a little implausible to have made the necessary machining modifications to make those rifles true autos. Regardless, unbelievably despicable.
 
GrnRanger said:
Well it looks like now they are reporting he had a bump stock or SlideFire attachment. When I first saw the videos and heard reports monday morning of "automatic gunfire" one of my first thoughts was, I wonder if he had a slideFire. Based on his initial profiling and reports of .223 and .308, it seemed a little implausible to have made the necessary machining modifications to make those rifles true autos. Regardless, unbelievably despicable.
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I will say that am VERY pro 2nd Amendment but I see absolutely no reason that a bumpstock or similar modification is legal or useful for any hunting or self defense purpose.
 
I personally dont have an issue with SlideFire attachments. I would agree with you in general they are not useful for hunting or self defense purposes, but many people get enjoyment out of them for target shooting and recreational shooting. If people can/want to burn through 100s or 1000s of rounds every trip to their outdoor range, by all means, go for it. But just because one psycho chooses to use the attachment to cause such a despicable tragedy, doesnt mean they should necessarily be outlawed. I personally probably would not own one, but that is for the sheer argument of the financial sense, not because I see it as serving no purpose for anyone. I've shot an auto rifle before, it was A LOT of fun, but I don't think I could ever justify owning one for financial reasons. But I wouldn't make the argument that NO ONE should own one because its only purpose is a death tool. People can and will use all sorts of means to create chaos and tragedy (cars, trucks, fertilizer, diesel, machetes, pressure cookers, and on and on) but they arent outlawed. I find the same argument applies to mag limits.
 
CasterTroy said:
In those examples, I agree the loner syndrome plays a factor in the non-ISIS/Islam killings. In THIS guy? I still say no. Wellner really nails it IMHO in this analysis. Compares him to James Hodgkinson and the attempted Republican slaughter. Just a psycho
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There again, it speaks to why the "why" is so important. Hodgkinson asked before hand if it was a "republican" practice that was going on, SPECIFICALLY targeting a group of people with one commonality with the goal of disrupting the balance (or imbalance) of power in government. There was no commonality in Vegas except that they all liked country music. If he was doing it for the notoriety, typically they don't take their own life, they want to be taken out by the police in a blaze of glory.
 
GrnRanger said:
I personally dont have an issue with SlideFire attachments. I would agree with you in general they are not useful for hunting or self defense purposes, but many people get enjoyment out of them for target shooting and recreational shooting. If people can/want to burn through 100s or 1000s of rounds every trip to their outdoor range, by all means, go for it. But just because one psycho chooses to use the attachment to cause such a despicable tragedy, doesnt mean they should necessarily be outlawed. I personally probably would not own one, but that is for the sheer argument of the financial sense, not because I see it as serving no purpose for anyone. I've shot an auto rifle before, it was A LOT of fun, but I don't think I could ever justify owning one for financial reasons. But I wouldn't make the argument that NO ONE should own one because its only purpose is a death tool. People can and will use all sorts of means to create chaos and tragedy (cars, trucks, fertilizer, diesel, machetes, pressure cookers, and on and on) but they arent outlawed. I find the same argument applies to mag limits.
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Every other item on that list has a distinct purpose that it was designed for that is completely benign. Cars and trucks a means of transport, fertilizer for crop growth, machetes cut down dense underbrush, pressure cookers cook food quickly, etc. Hunting with a SlideFire will only end up with venison swiss cheese. Impractical to say the least. I've heard it said that if you need your hunting rifle to shoot 600 rounds a minute, you should probably try fishing instead.
 
UTfball68 said:
I think if you look hard enough, you could find signs/traits in just about anybody that could correlate to a terrible deed, just depends on how paranoid you want to be about it. But I do believe the ones that actually follow through have a lot more warning signs than the average Joe, but loved ones just don't want to see it and justify it. That's why when they're interviewed you never hear about what a horse shit person someone was, it's always 'I had no idea they were capable of X atrocity, they were such a loving husband/father/friend/coworker/etc'. But from the outside looking in, who couldn't tell what the Columbine kids were up to??? Hell, how many of our loved ones would question us if we started loading up on firearms or ammo??? Or told our wife we had to 'go on a business trip for a few days'. Last time I was out at Mackey's they had a couple full autos, wife told me to buy one if I wanted it so badly...didn't, but that wouldn't have raised a red flag. Went to a gun show a couple weekends ago, blew a couple grand there, when I got home...the wife just rolled her eyes at me. Does any of that mean I'm unstable, not necessarily, but hindsight is always 20/20 and the pieces can be made to fit.
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Spot on. I bet 95% of the members of this forum could be shaped into a "profile" that would fit the narrative. LEO's have a tough enough job without the media turning everything into racebait.
 
Well, my point was, you can take almost any object that is used for practical use or personal enjoyment, and turn it into a weapon or death tool. I just chose some items that have been used in past years/decades to create destruction in order to illustrate my example.
 
ManglerYJ said:
Every other item on that list has a distinct purpose that it was designed for that is completely benign. Cars and trucks a means of transport, fertilizer for crop growth, machetes cut down dense underbrush, pressure cookers cook food quickly, etc. Hunting with a SlideFire will only end up with venison swiss cheese. Impractical to say the least. I've heard it said that if you need your hunting rifle to shoot 600 rounds a minute, you should probably try fishing instead.
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Slippery slope defining legality/practicality based on intended use.
 
UTfball68 said:
Slippery slope defining legality/practicality based on intended use.
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I agree that it may be a slippery slope, but it is already an everyday occurrence in other arenas. Take a crack pipe for instance.
Under federal law the term drug paraphernalia means “any equipment, product or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance.”

So if a crack pipe, which is used to convert a controlled substance from possession to usage, is illegal to own, then it shouldn't be a far stretch for an item which modifies something from it's designed purpose to a purpose which IS illegal to own/use should also be illegal.

Again, I don't like the idea of the government telling me what I can and can't buy any more than you do, but at some point common sense has to over-ride.
 
Ehhh...An isolated incident should not rule the majority, you can't legislate every single action a human being may or may not perform. That would be the common sense to me. And I still can't get over the fact that if it weren't guns, something else would have been used. If someone wants to hurt people, they will.
 
UTfball68 said:
Ehhh...An isolated incident should not rule the majority, you can't legislate every single action a human being may or may not perform. That would be the common sense to me. And I still can't get over the fact that if it weren't guns, something else would have been used. If someone wants to hurt people, they will.
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I agree that the gun(s) is not the problem. BUT he would have been WAY less effective in this kill zone had his weapons ONLY had true semi-automatic capability (one trigger pull - one bullet fired). That is what makes this situation unique. High capacity clips vs. smaller clips also would not have made a significant difference except he would have been switching between guns/ magazines more. From what I'm reading, he had roughly 72 minutes from initial 911 call (probably within seconds of the first casualty) to door breach. That is a LOT of time to reload/switch rifles, etc. when nobody is returning fire (as it would be in a combat scenario).

The lack of common sense from the legislature seems to be stemming from idiots like those in Michigan trying to mandate that nobody should be allowed to carry a rifle into a hotel that faces an open arena. Talk about legislating a single action! That's just DUMB.
 
ManglerYJ said:
I agree that it may be a slippery slope, but it is already an everyday occurrence in other arenas. Take a crack pipe for instance.
Under federal law the term drug paraphernalia means “any equipment, product or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance.”

So if a crack pipe, which is used to convert a controlled substance from possession to usage, is illegal to own, then it shouldn't be a far stretch for an item which modifies something from it's designed purpose to a purpose which IS illegal to own/use should also be illegal.

Again, I don't like the idea of the government telling me what I can and can't buy any more than you do, but at some point common sense has to over-ride.
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Maybe the "paraphernalia" shouldn't be illegal? Owning a bong or pipe should not be a crime. Robbing someone so you have cash to get your fix is a crime. The actual act of possession or getting high should not be illegal. You should have the right to hurt yourself, not others.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
ManglerYJ said:
I agree that the gun(s) is not the problem. BUT he would have been WAY less effective in this kill zone had his weapons ONLY had true semi-automatic capability (one trigger pull - one bullet fired). That is what makes this situation unique. High capacity clips vs. smaller clips also would not have made a significant difference except he would have been switching between guns/ magazines more. From what I'm reading, he had roughly 72 minutes from initial 911 call (probably within seconds of the first casualty) to door breach. That is a LOT of time to reload/switch rifles, etc. when nobody is returning fire (as it would be in a combat scenario).

The lack of common sense from the legislature seems to be stemming from idiots like those in Michigan trying to mandate that nobody should be allowed to carry a rifle into a hotel that faces an open arena. Talk about legislating a single action! That's just DUMB.
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Fact is that banning anything doesn't keep criminals from doing it. I guarantee if the slide fire stock wasn't available he could have bought as many full auto converted ak47's as he wanted from other criminals.

I don't want one on any of my weapons either but I think an America should have the right if they want to.

With that said if I thought giving up all my firearms forever would keep us from ever having another firearm related murder I would do it in a heartbeat. But that will never happen because as has been stated evil will prevail. Criminals will find guns on the black market and just have a field day knowing nobody can defend themselves.

I pray for everyone involved in this disgusting act of terror. And hope the world can come up with an effective way to help people like the shooter before they hurt others.
 
I've been following this pretty closely and I'm interested to see what the "official story" ends up being.
I want to see video footage of the 65 year old man taking all that stuff upstairs. The hotel should have a shit ton of video footage of this guy moving around.
Videos on the internet seem to show gun flash from around the 12th floor (from multiple videos) I haven't seen any from the 32nd (could be flash suppressor)
If the guy is shooting full auto out the window...and has additional fire arms...why did he give up so quick and shoot himself?
If he fired from back inside the room/rooms then he wouldn't be able to see his target from the 32nd floor. I would *think* the dude would want to watch the victims go down.

Was he just a patsy? Was this set up to push new gun legislation....if so then who did it?
 
YotaOnRocks said:
Fact is that banning anything doesn't keep criminals from doing it. I guarantee if the slide fire stock wasn't available he could have bought as many full auto converted ak47's as he wanted from other criminals.
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This.
YotaOnRocks said:
With that said if I thought giving up all my firearms forever would keep us from ever having another firearm related murder I would do it in a heartbeat. But that will never happen because as has been stated evil will prevail. Criminals will find guns on the black market and just have a field day knowing nobody can defend themselves.
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And this. We should start by banning murder since that's the real problem. Oh wait.

ManglerYJ said:
BUT he would have been WAY less effective in this kill zone had his weapons ONLY had true semi-automatic capability (one trigger pull - one bullet fired).
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Eh, he's shooting at a massive, indiscriminate target from a reasonable range. A bunch of preloaded semi-autos would easily be just as deadly, one in each hand, carelessly firing at a massive target. Back before the boating accident, I could easily unload a 30 round mag in less than 20 seconds and put all of them on a 1ft target at 50 yards, give maybe 1 or 2 misses on shot 2 or 3. To keep that proportional, at 1000 yards that would be around a 20ft target. I'm guessing the crowd was easily 10 times that big. So basically like shooting a the broad side of a barn at rock throwing distance and you don't care where you hit it so long as you generally hit it.
 
Per Wikipedia a mass shooting is "4 or more victims with no cooling off period". Based on that definition Chicago has had 27 mass shootings so far in 2017. Over 2900 shootings in that City this year with over 500 deaths. Their strict gun laws don't seem to be very effective. I would wonder how many of the guns used in Chicago were legally purchased by the assailant. The Vegas shooter could have used a handful of rifles with a pile of 3 shot clips and still would have inflicted serious casualties in the 13 minutes they said he was shooting.
 
I think what scares me worse that all of this is the idea that someone will try to "outdo" it. With every shooting of this magnitude in the past, there has always been a copycat that tries to do bigger and better. The news media feeds it. Analysts weed through information (much as I have done) to try to re-create exactly how it was done and how he was taken down. This gives us some closure in the process knowing that Las Vegas police officers ran INTO the fire fight in an effort to take him down, but it also gives a potential copycat information as to how to do it better. All because we "want to know" - we have the RIGHT to know.

Reminds me of lyrics to a Disturbed song, Legion of Monsters:

The monster shattered the day
In a place where innocents play
I was mourning as the headlines shouted his name
They didn't waste any time
I was disgusted when the madman's image appeared at the top of the screen
Some were barely alive
Too many didn't survive
Still they kept repeating headlines shouting the name
Do they not realize
The future demons with the hope of becoming the one at the top of the screen?
They've thrown morality away
With such depravity, I must say
You made sure the world will remember the name
But didn't the thought even enter your mind
You'd give a new legion of monsters a reason to take your life
The pictures drove me insane
Can't get them out of my brain
You made certain they were right at the top of the page
You disrespected…
The pictures drove me insane
Can't get them out of my brain
You made certain they were right at the top of the page
You disrespected the dead
When the only name was of the one who committed the murder at the top of the page
The madman watching with glee
As the herd of innocents flee
They saw it all unfold right on the face of the screen
Perhaps they could be the one
Who'd become famous for the acts of terror reflected on the face of the screen?
You've thrown morality away
With such depravity, I must say
You made sure the world will remember the name
But didn't the thought even enter your mind
You'd give a new legion of monsters a reason to take your life
And I call you a pimp, as you whore the insane
The damage you caused, you cannot rectify
You've inspired new legions of monsters determined to take more life
Take a look around
Listen to the sound
Feel it on the ground
Fear has come in a wave
Just another gathering of helpless innocents forced into the grave
Listen to me now
Are you with me now
Can you tell me how these vultures still glorify them
Lets defy them
Take a look around
Listen to the sound
Feel it on the ground
Fear has come in a wave
Just another gathering of helpless innocents forced into the grave
Listen to me now
Are you with me now
Can you tell me how these vultures still glorify them
Lets defy them
You made sure the world will remember the name
But didn't the thought even enter your mind
You'd give a new legion of monsters a reason to take your life
And I call you a pimp, as you whore the insane
The damage you caused you cannot rectify
You've inspired new legions of monsters determined to take more life
The monster shattered the day
The monster shattered the day
You're giving a legion of monsters a reason
 
1stgenxxx said:
I've been following this pretty closely and I'm interested to see what the "official story" ends up being.
I want to see video footage of the 65 year old man taking all that stuff upstairs. The hotel should have a shit ton of video footage of this guy moving around.
Videos on the internet seem to show gun flash from around the 12th floor (from multiple videos) I haven't seen any from the 32nd (could be flash suppressor)
If the guy is shooting full auto out the window...and has additional fire arms...why did he give up so quick and shoot himself?
If he fired from back inside the room/rooms then he wouldn't be able to see his target from the 32nd floor. I would *think* the dude would want to watch the victims go down.

Was he just a patsy? Was this set up to push new gun legislation....if so then who did it?
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We are on the same page with a lot of this. A few of my buddies and I have said from the beginning, until we see footage of the guy taking a bunch of suitcases up to his room at once or over the 3 days he had supposedly been there, or bellhops delivering them to his room, I won't really be convinced of any narrative we are told. Vegas hotels and casinos are some of the most highly monitored public areas in existence.

As for the muzzle flash theories...I'm sorry, I'm not buying anyones Facebook Forensics. Cell phone videos during chaos in the most light polluted city in the world? Eh, not buying any of it. Same goes for the sound theories of multiple shooters. Too much stuff for sound to bounce off of in that town nearby: Other wings of the hotel, jet blast walls from the airport not too far behind the venue, other hotels and structures. No real accuracy in any of it other than "oh I know what X sounds like" claims. Facebook Forensics.

By the time they found him most of the street and venue had been cleared and locked down. If he was set up, who supposedly fired through the door at SWAT and hit that security guard that supposedly took one to the leg? People were really quick to "leak" photos of the big scary assault rifles but no photos of these supposed cameras he had set up to monitor it all.

Until you show me the 4473's for guns he had purchased and video footage of him or bellhops dragging bags to his room, I'm going to be pretty skeptical of any narrative we are told. This is just the tip of the list of variables in this one.
 
Perhaps one of the hardest things to deal with in this kind of situation - aside from the human tragedy - is the need for patience to wait for all of the real, hard cold facts to come out rather than jumping to conclusions and building narratives ahead of time.
 
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