Cycled my 4 link today.. Have a few questions

I got ~7 on the lowers as well but ~24.4 on the uppers. If you move the upper link out 2" it will give you ~20 on the upper, moving it out 5.25" gives you ~13.3. I'd say move the upper link where it clears the pan at full bump and roll on.
 
I got ~7 on the lowers as well but ~24.4 on the uppers. If you move the upper link out 2" it will give you ~20 on the upper, moving it out 5.25" gives you ~13.3. I'd say move the upper link where it clears the pan at full bump and roll on.

I can't. If move them out they will be hanging off the front of the truss.

I put one of the tires on out of curiosity and at double stuff I have tons of clearance. If I leave one side stuffed and droop the other out the stuffed side continues to rotate up and starts to eat the tube work before the other side even gets to full droop. It looks like reworking the links and notching the frame is only going to get me more useable uptravel in a double stuff scenario as I'm already at my limit in a full droop/full stuff scenario.
 
So after staring at this pile for a while I realized that I could notch the frame to clear the axle and tie rods but was still going to have issues getting the ram to clear so I finally made the choice I should have from the start. Cut the frame in front of the motor mounts, made new longer links and I'm now clearing like 7" of up. I figured finishing out the front frame with tube wouldn't be much more work than all the notching and plating.

full
 
So after staring at this pile for a while I realized that I could notch the frame to clear the axle and tie rods but was still going to have issues getting the ram to clear so I finally made the choice I should have from the start. Cut the frame in front of the motor mounts, made new longer links and I'm now clearing like 7" of up. I figured finishing out the front frame with tube wouldn't be much more work than all the notching and plating.

full


Post up a screen shot of the final numbers.

You'll be happy with the additional up travel.
 
So after staring at this pile for a while I realized that I could notch the frame to clear the axle and tie rods but was still going to have issues getting the ram to clear so I finally made the choice I should have from the start. Cut the frame in front of the motor mounts, made new longer links and I'm now clearing like 7" of up. I figured finishing out the front frame with tube wouldn't be much more work than all the notching and plating.

full
Smart move
 
After pulling measurements on all the new lengths using my existing mounts my AS at ride height is 83%, 98% at 6" of up, and 84% at 8" of droop. I can't lower the frame side uppers because they will contact the lowers. I have a little room to raise the axle side uppers if necessary. I would have to raise the axle side upper 1.5" to get 100% AS but idk if that's going to clear the frame. Suggestions?
 
After pulling measurements on all the new lengths using my existing mounts my AS at ride height is 83%, 98% at 6" of up, and 84% at 8" of droop. I can't lower the frame side uppers because they will contact the lowers. I have a little room to raise the axle side uppers if necessary. I would have to raise the axle side upper 1.5" to get 100% AS but idk if that's going to clear the frame. Suggestions?

Can u get less AS ?
 
Can u get less AS ?

Yes, I have a hole 1" lower on the axle side upper which would put me at 70% at ride height, 87% at 6" up, and 71% at 8" of droop.

I was under the impression the goal in the front was around 100% for neutrality so that the only dive you would get would be from weight transfer and not geometry.
 
Yes, I have a hole 1" lower on the axle side upper which would put me at 70% at ride height, 87% at 6" up, and 71% at 8" of droop.

I was under the impression the goal in the front was around 100% for neutrality so that the only dive you would get would be from weight transfer and not geometry.

100% Anti dive means specifically that. At 100% AD, the suspension will not change position under braking, from forward weight transfer.

It's my opinion, that The trouble with 100AD,
Is how the suspension behaves under throttle while climbing obstacles.

In that scenario, torque is being used to attempt to compress the front suspension due to geometry.

Too much AD/AS in front can lead to front wheel hop while climbing.

Tire gets traction, torque to that wheel, suspension tries to compress due to geometry, then tire slips, no traction, suspension settles, and process starts over again.

It's similar issue as too much AS in rear, but the force line acts on the suspension in the opposite direction.

You can see it in videos of people climbing obstacles on the throttle with wheel speed. The front hits something with increased traction and it's like the axle tries to shoot up towards the frame, then it just starts hopping.

Anti squat numbers become anti dive in the front during braking.

A positive Front AS/AD become Pro dive under throttle in 4wd.
 
I'm really starting to think links aren't as exact of a science as they seem to be. I've read/been told a little of everything now. That high AD causes wheel hop.. low AD causes wheel hop.. and a bunch of other contradicting stuff. I try to think through everything and weed out the BS but idk what is what anymore haha.

I currently have holes that will give me 83 and 70 and I have a little more room to drill another hole to give me 60ish. Surely I can run with that and one of those numbers will work well.
 
For all practical purposes the numbers really don't mean shit. All of that math goes out the window as soon as you pull up on an obstacle because it's all based on forces acting on the suspension when level. Having a basic understanding of what's going on and how things "should" be setup is going to be more beneficial than anything at this point. In other words...simply knowing you should triangulate them to a certain point and have some degree of separation at the axle and frame will get you in the ballpark.

When you're putting down a couple hundred horsepower, going fast, jumping, competing, etc. then you can start analyzing the numbers as close as possible. For the time being just put them where they fit taking into consideration the basic principles and roll with it.
 
For all practical purposes the numbers really don't mean shit. All of that math goes out the window as soon as you pull up on an obstacle because it's all based on forces acting on the suspension when level. Having a basic understanding of what's going on and how things "should" be setup is going to be more beneficial than anything at this point. In other words...simply knowing you should triangulate them to a certain point and have some degree of separation at the axle and frame will get you in the ballpark.

When you're putting down a couple hundred horsepower, going fast, jumping, competing, etc. then you can start analyzing the numbers as close as possible. For the time being just put them where they fit taking into consideration the basic principles and roll with it.



That's not accurate.

Yes too little or too much AS will cause wheel hop.

The instant you pull up on an obstacle, vertical waterfall style climb for example,

You suspension moves towards the "droop" position as the pitch changes but gravity direction stays constant.

This puts less weight on springs and more on the links themselves. Rear traction moves toward 100% and front moves toward 0%. This is in terms of traction split, not actual traction.

Depending on the calculator you are using, is whether your AS value is accurate.

Flat ground, 4wd, torque and traction are split 50/50.

Older calcs represent AS in. RWD only.

The newest calc has a box for split front vs rear.

My point to all this is, you must take that into account when applying how the calculator numbers will affect the suspension characteristics in real life.

I shoot for rear numbers to not exceed 80% in droop, in 2wd. This way on climbs, typically in places I don't want to have a break due to wheel hop, the AS isn't excessively high.

It's definitely all a compromise to fit your design and chassis constraints.

It's a blend of AS change, pinion change, driveshaft plunge, roll center height etc.

To me, the ability to climb hard obstacles is the most important design aspect.

If racing endurance/ultra4 I'd be more concerned with pinion angle change and less with AS increase, to keep the joints alive, to finish a race, and sacrifice potentially having to pull cable on steep climbs.

If desert racing, I would be more concerned with pinion change and driveshaft plunge and getting the instant center low and forward to put more forces through the shocks where they can be absorbed, vs straight to the chassis.

Mud bog, drag racing, etc all have different ideal setups.

Set it up the best you can, to what fits your chassis constraints for the intended usage you are wanting to wheel.

To apply the principles of vehicle dynamics to offroad use, takes some creativity. Acceleration and braking are the same. Cornering is the same force as off camber situations. The only difference is with pitch, which changes the traction split and suspension position.
 
Last edited:
It's really not too bad. It takes some time and coffee but well worth it in the end.

Shoot for less than 80% AS in droop, in 2wd.

Less than 6 degree total pinion change through travel.

Unless building a chassis around the links, don't worry about roll center height, put the links where they fit your frame and axles easiest.

Get the roll axis angle as flat as possible.

40 degrees total minimum triangulation, or use panhard.

The current trend is less than 60% AS in droop in the front.

Adjustable upper link chassis mounts for lower and higher AS values to see what you personally feel is the best.
 
Back
Top