Fundraisers/Raffles - Important

DRaider90

DRaider90

Uwharrie Off-Road Volunteering
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Location
Weddington, NC
Beyond grants (which I will talk about probably later after the next work day) there are ways we can raise money to help support the Forest Service. I talked with Terry Savery about this and told her I would post something up here. Now the Forest Service needs money for a couple things, which the state/government etc only covers so much (RTP funding etc).

The first thing we would like to focus on is tools/equipment to work on the trails. Tools/equipment can save the Forest Service money on paying contractors to do work that they could do themselves. Some of you probably know/heard Terry or others talk about the guy that was contracted for Skid Steer Loader work this past off-season. I think even some volunteers in February mentioned getting stuck behind him.

This is a perfect example. If the Forest Service had the equipment they wouldn't of had to pay a contractor to do the trail repairs. So therefore that money could be spent on other trail repairs, improvements, EXPANSION, etc. I think you get the idea. Every dollar that they don't have to spend contracting work out can be better used in other areas.

Now after some phone calls etc and knowing the work covered on work days I have a good idea of our first goal to raise money for. It would be a HUGE help to the Forest Service to have a Skidsteer Loader (aka Bobcat). And yes I am aware the thousands of dollars Skidsteers cost. The Forest Service Bulldozer isn't always the most efficient tool to use for trail repairs. And Terry told me the Tractor they have isn't really set up for attachments like an auger.

With the addition of attachments a skidsteer loader is a very versatile tool. It would be just with the use of an Auger the skidsteer loader would save the Forest Service enough money to pay for itself. Keep in mind augers are used from putting up guard rail on the trails, to installing fence, gates, etc. Beyond that you have the normal bucket that can be used to repair ruts/trail damage, block bypasses, maintain drainage ditches, perform road/parkinglot maintenance, and the list goes on.

Right now we are in the brainstorming phase of this. I want to get ideas from everyone on how we can raise the money to meet our first goal of purchasing and donating a skid steer loader. I know some will say this a big goal to start off with, but I know we can do it. And we will be discussing smaller goals as they come up, such as smaller tools, supplies, etc that we may be able to purchase/donate.

I have some ideas of my own which I will post soon, probably after the work day Saturday. So lets get the ball rolling here. What do you guys think?

(Keep in mind the Skidsteer Loader isn't the only goal we will be working on. Its the larger/main focus but don't forget about smaller goals we can cover to helps us build up the the larger goals.)
 
I think this is a great idea ! I know some clubs/groups have access and bring in their own equipment. I'm glad to see you carrying some of the many ideas that have been discussed forward, and continue to seek the needed answers. I think you're doing a great job and everyone can all agree that the work your doing is greatly needed.

Can you get with Terry and identify their overall wish list?
- I realize a loader (and attachments) would be on this list but if a large list was identified and broken down, it could be worked on in various ways over time. It might also highlight the continued need that exists. I've heard mention of many types of supplies. Your last post identified the scarcity of hammers. How many of those are needed? etc..

- It sounds like your proposing the FS to purchase the item(s) with donated money?
- Could 'we' donate the actual piece of equipment if one was located/purchased?
- Do we/they need to actually purchase one if we can simply identify when it's needed and rent one. Or possibly rent one as needed as an interim solution ?
- What would be the purchase cost vs rental costs ?
--- Would the FS be responsible for future maintenance/upkeep of the item(s) or would we need to raise funds for that also?
- Would we (volunteers) be able to operate the equipment ? (or need to be certified?)
- What if 'we' collectively as 'Friends of Uwharrie' purchased a nice used unit ? Would this also fill the need?
- If 4x4 folks donated $ to purchased the equipment would it be used only on 4x4 trails?

I am 100% for raising funds for equipment. I would suggest that the potential resources on this site be used to help find and possibly purchase the equipment. (be it new or used).

I haven't seen these answered, but some other questions that came up at the last NC4x4 work day I attend was:
1) If clubs or groups purchase/bring their own equipment to URE is there a location that can be used to store them.
- Could a small shipping container be stored/used somewhere accessible, as a work shed or sorts.

I think we should slow the cart bit and brainstorm about the specific goals to be reached, that way people will be more included and more likely to contribute or help raise the money.

I had already mentioned to Terry if there was a specific equipment need for a specific task/job to make them known. There are many people on the forum who either have or have access to lots of stuff.

The discussion about some culvert pipes comes to mind. Potentially doing these repairs mid week to minimize trail shut down. This sounds like a mini-excavator type machine might be better ?

'IF' the equipment was located, or brought in, do they have the culvert to go in? or is that needed also (possibly add that to the wish list).
 
Y'all keep up the good work!
 
50\50 raffles work great bc no one has to "donate" any thing to put it on. Just an idea. The other thing is talking to local companies about possibly "demoing" units to see how they will work for what we are going to be using them for, maybe one every third sat of a month...wink wink.
 
First, thanks for the kind words. I will try to break this down and reply to each point:

Overall Wish List:
This will definitely be needed, and it will be something we will have to work on with Terry and Deborah. As anyone that is involved with the work days has probably figured out its going to be a long list. You would think the tools we (and other clubs) bring would be supplementing (the smaller part) of what the Forest Service has for tools (the larger part). In actuality its the other way around. And I think a lot of it is the Forest Service's tool supply hasn't increased with the trail usage. I bet back in may 2003 the tools they have would cover it, but the usage of the OHV trail system at Uwharrie has exploded since then. So the list will probably be a long one.

Who will be purchasing the Bobcat?
It would make most sense to me at least for us to purchase the Bobcat, then donate it to the Forest Service.

Rental of a Bobcat as a possibility?
The cost of the March Bobcat rental was $377.17. You apply that across the work days (Feb-Dec), it would equate to $4,148.87. A older used 80's Bobcat sells for around $4k-$5k, while a newer used model would go for around $8k or $9k. Either way renting a skid loader would not be cost efficient in the long run. One or two more rentals could be efficient until the money is raised, but even 1 more rental is almost $400.

Some may say we may not need a Bobcat for every work day. If the Forest Service knew we had that resource we would have work every work day to do with it. There is a long list of stuff that the Bobcat could be used for, even on light duty work days. And as far as rentals go we would need someone to transport the Bobcat from the rental company, out to Uwharrie and then on time back to the rental company to return it.

How would maintenance be covered?
I would think the Forest Service would have the resources to handle the upkeep of the equipment. But I cannot say for sure, I will have to run this by Terry. There is a possibility we may have to help cover maintenance but we will have to wait and see.

Would we operate the equipment?
Seeing we raised the money, and purchased the equipment there should be no issues with us operating it. Currently there isn't a certification to operate equipment on work days (unlike Chainsaws etc). So it would be very unlikely that would be need to be certified, but again I will run this by Terry.

What if the "Friends of Uwharrie" purchased the Bobcat?
I am not 100 percent clear on this, but I am presuming we are talking what if we purchased the unit but didn't donate it to the Forest Service. This is a possibility but it would still bring up the issue of getting the equipment out here, and we would be guaranteed we would have to cover the maintenance costs. Just something to consider.

Would the equipment be only used of 4x4 Trails?
This would be up to the Forest Service. It is obvious the primary use would be on the 4x4 Trails, but it would probably be implemented in other maintenance that we also would benefit from. Such as road maintenance, parking lot upkeep, putting up fence in other areas (like along roadside primitive campsites) etc etc.

Storage For Equipment?
The Forest Service has storage at that spray fields and other areas for their own equipment. But I can't say for sure about club equipment. There may be insurance risks of storing our equipment etc, but again we will see. Another thing on the list to ask Terry.

Equipment for Culverts?
A mini excavator would be a good choice, but a skid loader with a backhoe attachment could also be used. And as far as I know the culverts cost would also need to be covered. I know grants were mentioned, but I will have to look into this.

But that is it for now, I am off to work. When I get back later tonight I will post some other stuff etc.
 
Complete end use and maintenance would be my biggest concerns.

End use totally for 4x4/trail use? What happens if a trail(s) close? Do we want our donated equipment put to use to prevent us from access to the trail(s)? What happens when the expected life of the equipment is used up and it is abbadoned? Abandoned prematurely?

Maintenance is a HUGE task with equipment. I don't know how up to the task the USFS is with this task, esp with donated equipment.

Would it be possible to have a 3rd part own the equipment and "lease" the equipment to the USFS (for like $1) and almost bind them in an agreement that we can dictate the end use and maintenance? This may be an option to protect the investment.

thoughts?
 
Another concern, a horse group I know of donated something $5k in building materials for a supposed stable, night stall for horses to be kept only while the owners were on site to a state park in SC...turns out once you donate the materials you lose control of where they go. So the board voted and took their materials and built an addition onto an operations building... cover your ass here.

Also you need to check on the operator permit. A good friend works for the NCFS and previously worked for the USFS in another state. In both cases he had to take claasses on how to operate an ATV, his truck in 4wdd mode, and how to handle a back pack pesticide sprayer, use of any of the above without completing training was immediate dismissal. There is a horror story about a guy stuck in his driveway, uses 4wd, hasnt gone through the class and terminated for it...

If you donate the bobcat there will have to be operator certs to use it. If it is yours you can use it for the benefit of the USFS...

If it were me step one would be to establish a NFP or NPO (consult your friendly cpa for benefits of both) then let said organization own all equipment, said organization could then assign a value to its equipment and time and get a tax allowance deduction for every hour spent.
Yeah transporting could be an issue, but like suggested arrange to set an iso container on site and store there.

just talking out loud.
 
I remember collaborating w/ Jay Bird of Southern(the ice cream man!) about donating a 4x4 to URE for trail patrol ect...after a few weeks of calling back and forth..it was decided by the Forest service that they could not except it, because...get this, it would not fit the same ''fleet maintainance programs'' as their other vehicles.

In other words, Uncle Sam had already contracted out the ''fleet maintainance'' and things such as oil filters,tires,wiperblades,etc...were already under contract and substitutions could not be made.It's a red tape thing.

In other , other words US already paid for 10,000 oil filters for ford trucks...not jeeps.

I hope red tape dont bog these efforts down!
 
It is looking that it may be in our best interest to purchase the Bobcat, and then work out storage with the Forest Service. This would be without donating it to the Forest Service. I don't know what kind of impact this will have on the Forest Service applying the Bobcat to its volunteer hours.

So the obstacles to tackle are:

Storage of the Unit
Maintenance of the Unit
Raising Money to buy the Unit.

I all ready have an idea for Storage if we can't work out something with the FS. If we were able to buy the unit the 1st thing to do would be to talk to Chirs (outpost owner). He may be able to keep it at the Outpost. You never know.

What I do know is after this past work day it has been made obvious how much a Bobcat just with an Auger is needed. Let alone all the other uses for it.
 
Is there a Non-Profit set up yet? If not, I would suggest doing that soon. Many companies, including the 1 I work for will match funds employees donate to Non-Profit organizations.
 
What if you made a member level between regular subscriptions and vendor.

Like 40-60 dollars for a year, the regular $5.50 can go to the forum costs, everything else to a uwharrie fund.

Give those people like a blue or green diamond. Maybe change their user name color. I don't see the need for any more storage or access levels. But it could be a little bit extra towards the cause, and shouldn't take too much to implement.

just spitballin'.
 
DRaider90 said:
It is looking that it may be in our best interest to purchase the Bobcat, and then work out storage with the Forest Service. This would be without donating it to the Forest Service. I don't know what kind of impact this will have on the Forest Service applying the Bobcat to its volunteer hours.

So the obstacles to tackle are:

Storage of the Unit
Maintenance of the Unit
Raising Money to buy the Unit.

I all ready have an idea for Storage if we can't work out something with the FS. If we were able to buy the unit the 1st thing to do would be to talk to Chirs (outpost owner). He may be able to keep it at the Outpost. You never know.

What I do know is after this past work day it has been made obvious how much a Bobcat just with an Auger is needed. Let alone all the other uses for it.
Click to expand...

IMHO Wouldn't it be cheeper to rent a bobcat/skid steer as needed. they would only need it and the attachments every now and then. right? then storage, maintenance & theft isn't an issue. it would then come down to how much in funds can we could actually raise as a community....
 
First, I would suggest talking with people who you think might be possible sources of storage BEFORE posting this name up. Chris does a lot for everyone and while I doubt he would say no, volunteering him prior to even talking to him sorta backs him into a corner.

I still think renting units as we go the best option. The prices you quoted before for usage were on the high side. Rather than use that as the decision point to buy one, possibly call around and explain what it will be used for etc..
Renting removes all issues with maintenance/storage AND leaves the possibility to rent the best piece of equipment for the task at hand.
If a hole digger is needed. Plan to dig holes all damn day with the thing. Have the whole weekend planned out to make the most use of it while its there.. Not 3-4 hours and call it good.

Also I think renting unit spreads the costs out. Rather than a large amount needed upfront people can donate money in smaller amounts as needed over time.

All that said... I realize it can be 'hard work' digging holes in some of the locations. Personally I'm not against some old fashioned manual labor. If the locations of the holes can be marked out can people just show up when ever and knock out some holes when they like ? Maybe if we worked on organizing the people that are there and rotating people around as needed to spread the work load out vs 1-2 people operating some equipment and everyone else wondering why they showed up..
 
DRaider90 said:
I all ready have an idea for Storage if we can't work out something with the FS. If we were able to buy the unit the 1st thing to do would be to talk to Chirs (outpost owner). He may be able to keep it at the Outpost. You never know.
Click to expand...

I by no means was meaning to volunteer Chris for this job without talking to him when I posted the above. I was simply mentioning that he would be the 1st person of my list to talk to about this situation if the Forest Service wasn't able to arrange storage. I mentioned talking to him, and that he "MAY" be able to help.

As far as renting units go, $377.17 I posted wasn't a round about cost. It was the exact cost Chris was billed from the RS Braswell Company. I can tell this is going to be a lengthy reply so I am going to break this down.

1.)Most equipment rental companies are NOT OPEN on the WEEKEND. And if they are open on Saturday they close before we would have the skidsteer loader back. And even if we were to get it back on time, it would greatly cut back on usage time. Therefore you have to pay for an entire weekend rental.

2.)The cost of the rental goes beyond just the skid steer loader itself. You have to rent the Auger attachment, the bit (some companies charge for the bit), the trailer to haul it on (if there isn't one available), and sometimes even the chains etc to hold down the equipment on the trailer (Tarheel Rentals used to do this).

3.)I talked to a list of local rental companies that we used to rent Skid Steer Loaders from for the family concrete business back in March before the first work day. None of them were interested in the fact it was for a Forest Service work day. Skid steer loaders being as versatile as they are bring in a lot of money for the rental companies. So I can see why they wouldn't be all giddy about the idea.

We would have to come up with some kind of incentive for them, and even then it would be a hard sell. It isn't like the skid loader is being used a big event where they would get publicity from the usage. That is one of the fundamentals of sponsorships. The company donates a prize (or in our case use of their equipment or a discount) and gets their name put on banners etc at the event. We have to purely rely on that they are sympathetic to the 4 wheeling cause (maybe a wheeler themselves) and just want to donate/discount the use of the machine because they are nice folks.

4.)The cost/time analysis of renting vs buying:

Cost of renting vs purchase/upkeep: Lets just say we rent the unit every work day for 4 years. That is $16,619.24 using the exact cost of the March rental. To make numbers even lets just say we buy a unit for $6,619.24. Will we spend $10,000 in upkeep/maintenance/storage of the until over 4 years?

5.)Do we need a skid steer loader every work day?

There are so many illegal bypasses that pop up just month to month we could spend every work day just about putting in guard railing. What really burned me was that this past work day a large part of the guard railing we put up (or were supposed to put up) was right next to guard railing put up in March. People saw the guard railing that we put up, and just created new illegal bypasses around it. And this is just on one trail, I can only imagine if we surveyed all the other trails.

But lets move beyond the Auger/Guard Rail use of the skidsteer loader. Lets move to parking lot and road repair. Everyone is aware of all the pot holes and dips/ruts/ etc that appear over the span of a year. The double parking lot just got re-graveled this year actually. Some people forget the roads we use to travel in between the trails, and the parking lots that we use to park our tow rigs etc.

Lets move on to general trail repairs. Some volunteers will remember that someone was contracted to come up just with a skidsteer loader and do a lot of trail repairs. We would be able to do this instead. And this would be more than just one weekend a month. We would probably have work multiple weekends during the off-season. And then remember over time this repair work gets washed away etc. So we would also be doing trail repair work during the year to keep up what was done in the off-season.

6.)Skid steer loader vs manual labor.

First off lets consider time invested. It takes more time to use manual labor to do the work of the skid loader. We can get more done and in a shorter amount of time. Not to mention the skid loader can't do everything. There is still a large amount of manual labor to do. And if anything we could combine the efforts of the two. In the instance of guard railing. We could have one group putting up guard rail with the skidsteer loader, and one working with the manual augers.

Next lets consider efficiency and waste. A perfect example was one piece of guard rail this past work day. With the manual augers we were only able to go so far down. This left the guard railing sitting too high. So we had to use an extra guard railing post in the center. This was only one instance, but it adds up in the long run. You have to keep in mind the Forest Service doesn't have an unlimited supply of guard railing.

And the list goes on. There is a TON of work to do out there now that the use of the trails has risen exponentially in the last 6-8 years.

7.)Digging holes between work days when people had free time.

We actually discussed this very briefly during the work day. We joked about how great it would be, but then decided against it. Some holes would just end up getting filled, and the rest would post a hazard to the people taking the illegal bypasses. It sounds crazy, but the last thing you need is some idiot on a dirt bike or 4 wheeler hitting a hole, getting hurt and suing the Forest Service. It doesn't matter they were in the wrong going off the trail, its still a liability.

And beyond renting vs buying there is always the "other options".

I don't know if I mentioned but I did talk to Chris at the Outpost about this subject after the work day. He mentioned one source there at Uwharrie that did have a Skidsteer Loader and an auger attachment. That we could possibly use, for a smaller fee etc. But we have to talk to them and see what can be done. This brings up people on here that own equipment. Would they be willing to donate their equipment for work day use?

Beyond all this I do agree with rentals until we can work something else out. If that turns out buying a unit, or borrowing a unit from someone else great. We want to take the most cost effective route as possible. It would be awesome if we could get a company to just donate a brand new one. Something to think about. :beer:
 
Eli:
A few random thoughts to think about.
- Good work here! keep up the gusto and I look forward to elping out soon.
- Dont overlook repair costs, buy a used skidsteer for 6k and use it the amount you suggest I will wager you will spend in excess of 10k in repairs...
- If hole digging is the primary use a 2 man gas powered auger can be had for a few hundred bucks...I know it cant pave trails, but it can dig holes
- Talk to a smart rental outfit. That rental may be a tax deductible donation at prevailing rates (hint not the rate they normally charge maybe 10x that...and if you picked it up friday and return monday well that is 4 days...dont have to use weekend rates)
- If I was renting a bobcat Id have it delivered (sunbelt locally includes free delivery) not screw around with trailer rental etc.

Just reaing it sounds like you want to buy a bobcat and are trying to justify it. I still am not 100% sure you will be allowed to use it on the forest without a COI, at the least
 
I just found 4 different posts on craigs list for 1 or 2 man augers. Maybe we just need more augers out there ? Plus several breaker bars?

I'm not discounting the speed of using power equipment... I also found PTO attachment post hole diggers all in the 300-500 range, each looks almost brand new.

We have many smart people here. Possibly we can come up with a simple tow behind device that can easily make use of these 'cheap' 3 point post hole diggers. Build it similar to the larger units you can rent that are tow behind but maybe better suited for our needs.

I'm thinking build a 'thing':
- It can be towed by a regular hitch, possibly removable 'tow bar', drop down wheels etc..
- Has a good size engine* with a hydraulic pump setup.
- Has hydro driven wheels (thinking ditch witch type/size) for slow moving to crawl in to position.
I've spent all of 2 mins here so, possibly 3 wheeler with non driven front wheel for easy maneuvering ?? Sorta like driving a skid steer or larger hydrostat mower. 2 levers steer or both forward for straight.
- 2 drop legs that can be used to stabelize/level/position the platform
- Replicate a standard 3 point hitch so other attachments can be used?
This will give power up/down
- make it walk behind/ stand to operate possibly

dono just thinking....

* What size engine would be needed 10hp or 20? etc..
 
To be honest it doesn't matter to me if we rent a Bobcat or buy one. I am trying to convey what I see as the easiest and most cost efficient way of doing it. And that includes backing up what I say with explanations etc.

I think many people neglect that we were extremely lucky with how the March rental turned out. We had someone step up, willing to rent and transport the Bobcat. Plus we had everyone willing to pitch in and cover the rental including a $130 donation by one person. And that was just to cover a $377.17 rental fee, which is cheap compared to some places.

Lets take Sunbelt rentals mentioned above. Closest location is Salisbury, lets say we rent it Saturday, and return it Monday. For just the loader, no attachment, similar to what we had in march would be $310 a day. That is $620, before any additional charges etc (as stated on their website). The Auger will be $128 for 2 days, totaling $748 before tax, additional charges etc.

I made phone calls/visits back in March and I can make more. Because the only way renting will be economical would be if we got the rental for free. There is still the opportunity of borrowing a bobcat with auger from a business up at Uwharrie that will also have to look into with a possible minimal fee. So both are options.

It would be great if we could line up a company willing to donate a Bobcat. I just know the odds are slim, and the odds even slimmer that they would do one rental a month. Lets not even consider a couple rentals a month in Feb/March for heavier trail repair.

*Just saw Mike's post. I will have to comment on that later when I get off work".
 
My personal opinion is that we should continue to rent the bobcat (or similar) when needed. I don't expect we'd need it more than twice a year. Surely there are members of this board who own or have access to heavy equipment that would be willing to haul it down and help out. Heck, a regular old tractor could do most of the work that needs doing out there. Surely someone has one?? Since this is a volunteer/charity sort of outfit I don't see why we need to get tied up in purchasing heavy equipment. It's brand new and I don't think we are ready for that.

I also like Mike's idea of building the "thing". If it could be attached to a rig or perhaps an off-road trailer that would be ideal. It'd bring the suck trying to walk behind it on the more difficult trails.
 
MOST (not all) rental outfits I deal with will allow pick up Saturday AM at like 7 and return monday for 1 day price.

I still think the donation woul be relatively easy, if you had an NPO or NFPO.

Just thinking out loud hee, but id bet with a bobcat an auger, I could dig ~ 100 holes a day....more if they were closer together or not 5' deep etd.
How many holes nee drilled?

I know for a fact that an old man on a tractor with a auger (we called em post hole diggers) and two healthy men can install 2000' ft of barb wire in a day...I have done it. Hell get 10 guys down there and 1 competent tractor operator I think you would be shocked how much safety rail could go up...

Which leads to the questin, when do you have enough guard rail.
When do you start educating.
Hell do you guard rail the entire place?
Everyone does realize guardrail will actually impeded trail maintenance to some degree, right?
If you buy a bobcat, then you have insurance and maintenance and repair costs...you can not overstate these.

BTW in February I rented a bobcat, with smooth bucket and toothed bucket for a week (M-M) for ~ $700...
web posted rates never apply to businesses...find someone with a good account.
 
Dont they make a dingo similar to mike's contraption?
I think Home Depot rents a homeowner dingo auger for like $100/day...
 
When I rented the bobcat for $377 that was a Friday 7am pick up and return on Monday morning @ 7am. They were closed on Saturday/Sunday. The stipulation was I paid for 8 hours of machine time. If I went over the 8 hours they only charged me by the hour rather than for a whole days use. Many of the smaller rental places are willing to work with you on weekend rates.
 
SkyHiK5 said:
Dont they make a dingo similar to mike's contraption?
I think Home Depot rents a homeowner dingo auger for like $100/day...
Click to expand...

Rental rates on a Dingo are comparable to ride-in skid loader rates. Usually a bit cheaper, but only maybe by $50.

Hertz Equip rents from Friday PM to Monday AM for a day's rental. You just can't put more than 8 hrs on the machine. $3-400 for a standard day rate w/an auger is about right. If you need it for more than 2-3 days, a week is cheaper.

That said, the purchase of a skid loader or any other piece of equipment is a reasonable long-term goal, but it's realistically on a 12-18mo time frame. I also wonder about the economics of purchasing a machine that only gets used eight days a year. Maintenance on a skid loader, especially an older one, will kill your budget quick.

Short-term, we need to concentrate the activities that benefit from equipment to a couple of weekends a year and keep an eye out for a wheeler with equipment that needs a write-off. I agree with Ron that installing more guardrail every month is not a long-term solution.

How much luck have you had with a two-man auger?
 
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