Tie Rod Roll

Discussion in 'Axles / Suspension / Tires' started by YJJPWrangler, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. YJJPWrangler

    YJJPWrangler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2005
    Location:
    Charlotte
    Pulled the Willys into the garage yesterday and I noticed that I am getting extreme binding from the hydro assist ram when turning, especially to the right. The tie rod "rolls" on itself and the TRE's and that causes the ram mount(on tierod) to rotate vertically. It looks like the roll is specifically coming from the TRE's. I'm running 1 ton GM style TRE's on Branik hi-steer arms. Would something like this help?

    https://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/R1768.html

    Any other things I could look at?
     
  2. Jeff B

    Jeff B Thanos was right

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Location:
    Lincolnton N.C.
    Lets see how you mounted the ram.

    Does it roll with the ram not on the tie rod? Seems like that's a bandaid not a fix.
     
  3. Chris_Keziah

    Chris_Keziah Joe Dirt @ Rev Limit Fab

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Location:
    Winston-Salem
    I didn't run hydro assist on mine but I got most of my roll out of it with a custom spacer similar to Ruffstuffs. With the passenger side TRE at the knuckle in a nuetral position with the boot removed, measure between the TRE and knuckle. If memory serves ID: 7/8 OD: 1.5" Thickness: ~1/16" or so less than what you measured. I'll try and find a pic of the one's I've made later on.

    Edit: don't watch YouTube and type a response at the same time, shit comes out not making any sense.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  4. YJJPWrangler

    YJJPWrangler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2005
    Location:
    Charlotte
    Used a WFO ram mount to attach it to the axle. I did have to rotate the clamp slightly up to clear the U-bolts/spring pack. When I first got the steering working, I actually bent one of the U bolts due to the steering clamp hitting it. I think this rotation of the clamp only exacerbates the problem because now its not pushing in a strict horizontal motion.

    @getstucksome had a suggestion to max out the the TRE's opposite of each other and lock the jam nuts down to minimize rolling.

    With the front end off the ground, the rolling is minimal but with the tires on the ground its significant.

    I think my plan is going to be, clearance the U-bolt a bit more, return the clamp to a neutral position, and lock out the TRE's. @Chris_Keziah I believe I'm following you on measuring the TRE clearance. I did have to ream the hi steer arms for the GM 1 ton TREs so I might not have gone far enough.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. getstucksome

    getstucksome Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Location:
    Charlotte/Mt. Holly area
    If the tie rod clamp isn't pushing in only a side to side motion (clamp rotated up or down) your ram would end up exacerbating any roll - wanting to push up or down in addition to the side to side movement. I believe I'm thinking about that correctly.
     
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  6. Chris_Keziah

    Chris_Keziah Joe Dirt @ Rev Limit Fab

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Location:
    Winston-Salem
    By the time you go deep enough to get the TRE not to roll much you're cotter pin will be a county away from the castle nut. I wouldn't lock out the TRE as you'll fit to keep the jam nuts tight. Controlling the amount of roll at the PS knuckle will keep the tie rod in check and let the drag link do what it wants. This is the only pic I could find of it installed. I've always made them out of Delrin or similar material, basically just making an extra thick washer to keep the TRE from floppy around.

    TRE spacer pic example.jpg
     
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  7. jeepinmatt

    jeepinmatt Still Fat

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Location:
    Stanley, NC
    So whats the problem with tie rod roll? Anybody calculated the actual travel length variation from one extreme to the other? I mean, I know it doesn't "look" good, but how much does it affect steering feel and precision when you're pushing hard and trying to hit the apex of that corner?
    :popcorn:
     
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  8. Chris_Keziah

    Chris_Keziah Joe Dirt @ Rev Limit Fab

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Location:
    Winston-Salem
    Not sure if being sarcastic or trying to spark up discussion :rolleyes:

    Either way I'm bored and don't want to work. From my little experience tie rod roll usually just causes clearance issues with the tie rod and stuff that doesn't move (mainly the diff cover, sometimes the track bar bracket). Roll makes your steering feel like a mushed banana when no roll feels like a crisp apple, nobody likes mushy bananas unless your just weird o_O
     
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  9. Jeff B

    Jeff B Thanos was right

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Location:
    Lincolnton N.C.
    I am running the barnes offset tre's. They always fall to the rod side. Hurts nothing.
     
  10. Tim C

    Tim C Wizard

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2007
    Location:
    Fayetteville
    I don't run high steer but I reamed the knuckles so my TRE fit pretty tight, I lock out the two TREs and I tacked the jam nut, TRE and threaded tube insert with a single tack on one side to keep the ram from working mine loose. I couldn't package the ram in on my truck without a little angle to it. If I need to replace a TRE in the field a few strokes with a hacksaw blade will separate the jam nut and tube insert so the end can unscrew.

    I noticed after locking the TRE opposite they would work loose, the tack stopped it.
     
  11. YJJPWrangler

    YJJPWrangler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2005
    Location:
    Charlotte
    I think a lot of the movement is coming from the actual TRE's. They flop around a lot even when properly tightened. At $20 a piece, the Ruffstuff cure seems like it would work well in conjunction with clearing the U-bolt and realigning the tierod clamp. A little movement shouldn't hurt but at hard right turn, the clamp is rotated 90 degrees and one of the ports on the ram is dangerously close to the tierod.
     
  12. jeepinmatt

    jeepinmatt Still Fat

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Location:
    Stanley, NC
    Well, as usual, both!
    :lol:
     
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  13. OnlyOneDR

    OnlyOneDR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Location:
    R
    On mine I had some rolling when I put it together; what I did was rotate my attachment points so that the drag link and tie-rod kind of balanced each other. Originally the ram was in-line with the tie-rod (mounted to the axle tube sandwiched behind the tie-rod) and the drag link was lined up with the DLE shaft horizontal to the ground. The drag link would cause the tie-rod to roll when cycled back and forth because the force vectors were technically pushing right-down/left-up. By twisting my tie-rod to have the ram pointed down somewhat it counteracted the tie-rod twist from the other direction. See if you can do something similar.
     
  14. YJJPWrangler

    YJJPWrangler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2005
    Location:
    Charlotte
    Used @getstucksome suggestion and offset the passenger side TRE to the front and the driver side to the rear. Ground down one of the U-bolts and everything works great now. NO movement at all and steering is nice and easy.
     
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