Owner/builder for garage-shop build. Should I be scared?

Fabrik8

Fabrik8

Overcomplicator
Joined
May 27, 2015
Location
Huntersville
Thread could be titled "I should have built in 2017, when I could afford it"....

Before getting TL;DR comments, I'm going to reverse my normal thread structure, and put the question first. Then the backstory second:

Knowing the amount of legwork that goes into finding and wrangling your own subs, and getting quotes, etc., is there a lot of cost savings by being a owner/builder for a garage-shop project? Basically, can I save enough to make it worthwhile?


Build costs are ridiculous in the Charlotte area, very inflated from 2-3 years ago. I know some of that is materials.
I got a recent quote for my 1200 sqft detached shop/garage for $120k-140k, as a rough quote because we don't have detailed/engineered drawings yet (just in case we got $140k quotes and therefore needed to make changes). Honestly, that's actually better than a quote a got a few months ago. Anyway, $100+/sqft isn't going to happen for a garage.

Builder who gave the quote is saying there is scope for cost reduction, and may be able to get closer to $100k, but the implication seems to be that it becomes less interesting. We have not yet discussed the cost impact of making it smaller. It's honestly not some complicated architectural flight of fancy, but it looks rather nice and that's what I hired an architect.

My options are likely the normal options. Make it simple and boring, make it smaller, some combination of those. I don't want to shrink it and still spend a shitload of money, then feel like I just built something that's a bad value.


So, I'm pondering building it myself, generally speaking, as an owner/builder. I would need to sub out probably much of the stuff for time/code compliance, etc.

The fun part: I might use urethane-core camlock SIPs with Zip System skins, because they're friggin' cool and that would take care of framing/insulation/sheathing/housewrap/wire chases, all in potentially one day. And they're produced fairly locally. I'm getting some updated info on how much SIP costs have changed in the last 3 years as well.
I might have some labor help from people experienced with SIP construction, if I was the owner/builder.

So that leaves all the other work: Concrete/grading/formwork, plumbing (minor), electrical (not minor), siding, roofing, windows, and eventually drywall.

I've got some good skills, but I'm not a house builder and don't know a lot of code because of that. My late father was a GC for almost 20 years, but did not build houses. So if it's stuff like siding or windows, I might do it myself. Drywall too, because it's a garage and even my slow ass can hang rock and eventually end up with good results. The point is, I might not sub everything out. I'm also not doing it all myself, because it's never going to get done.

On the plus side, I will have engineered drawings as a starting point.

On the down side, I don't have a known pipeline of pre-vetted subs that I can use for all this stuff, which is where the legwork comes in.


If I save like $5k, I'm not wasting my time. If I save like $20k, that's a lot more compelling.
 
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You will save closer to 20k+. This will be a relatively simple project too--you're smart enough, the problem is and you've mentioned it- you don't know what sub is worth a shit and who isn't. Of course you could go for the higher priced guy in the nice truck but that doesn't guarantee anything and it's a real crap shoot with the lower priced quotes and you've only got one shot. I've used 3-6 each hvac, roofing, siding, window and paint contractors before finding the ones I'd ask to come back again. That being said, you're in Charlotte so there's a lot more talent around. You have any friends or neighbors with recommendations?
 
are you going through a bank to finance? If you are, they may require a contractor. If not, I say go for it yourself. $120k for a garage sounds crazy to me. I'd say some of the Charlotte guys on here could get you some good contacts for concrete and getting it framed in.
 
I talked about self-contractors with with a few of the subs on our house. It works like this: Our GC charged cost plus. The plus was 10% markup on labor and materials. The subs I talked to said that basically, when they do something for an owner/builder/self-GC, they upcharge 20-25% over what they would charge one of the GC's they regularly work for. Part of that is kind of a volume discount, part is because an owner/builder always has screw-ups...wrong materials, stuff not delivered yet, last minute delay because they aren't quite ready for that sub yet, etc.

So....pay a GC 10% markup, or go direct to the subs and pay them 20% more.

Sort of same with materials...doing odd stuff for myself and others, I usually spend a grand to a few grand on materials in any given year. A busy GC will be in the hundreds of thousands. They get better pricing.

Now, if you are doing a substantial part of the labor yourself, that is where you actually save money. But don't fool yourself there...years ago, friends of mine built a new house....they bragged up on doing a lot of the work themselves and how much money they saved. Talking further, I find that most of the work was stuff like cleaning the jobsite each day....minimum wage labor at best that a GC usually gets a flunky to do.
 
ramjo said:
are you going through a bank to finance? If you are, they may require a contractor. If not, I say go for it yourself. $120k for a garage sounds crazy to me. I'd say some of the Charlotte guys on here could get you some good contacts for concrete and getting it framed in.
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I'm not financing, which is part of the problem (I can't just ask the bank for a bigger loan). I can't spend money I don't have, even though I can't stomach $120k in any stretch of the imagination.
 
kaiser715 said:
I talked about self-contractors with with a few of the subs on our house. It works like this: Our GC charged cost plus. The plus was 10% markup on labor and materials. The subs I talked to said that basically, when they do something for an owner/builder/self-GC, they upcharge 20-25% over what they would charge one of the GC's they regularly work for. Part of that is kind of a volume discount, part is because an owner/builder always has screw-ups...wrong materials, stuff not delivered yet, last minute delay because they aren't quite ready for that sub yet, etc.

So....pay a GC 10% markup, or go direct to the subs and pay them 20% more.

Sort of same with materials...doing odd stuff for myself and others, I usually spend a grand to a few grand on materials in any given year. A busy GC will be in the hundreds of thousands. They get better pricing.

Now, if you are doing a substantial part of the labor yourself, that is where you actually save money. But don't fool yourself there...years ago, friends of mine built a new house....they bragged up on doing a lot of the work themselves and how much money they saved. Talking further, I find that most of the work was stuff like cleaning the jobsite each day....minimum wage labor at best that a GC usually gets a flunky to do.
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That's an interesting take on things, and something I was wondering about. Obviously the materials pricing to-the-trade is a given.
If I don't do it myself, I would be using that Charlotte builder (who quoted) who I believe uses the same small group of subs (they must, their quality is great), even though I'm not exactly next door to their normal working area. I'm just struggling with the fact that $120k would include only 10% markup, because I can't make that math work.


We'll see what happens with the SIP pricing, and who would be doing the on-site assembly if we go that route. I'm not sure if it's a serious breach of etiquette to ask the GC "Can you do the concrete, and then disappear for a week, and the walls will be up when you come back"....
 
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obullfish said:
What specs on 1200 sqft for $120k? That’s higher than the sqft price I built my house for.
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That was metal roof, some nice windows, insulation, interior drywall, small mini-split, electrical etc. Nothing really out of the ordinary though, which is why it was a jaw-dropper. I'm still trying to get a baseline quote with a slightly lower spec, like no interior drywall or insulation, and shingled roof, just to try and figure out what I'm actually dealing with for the raw building itself.

My architect mentioned that he's been getting $450k quotes for projects that would have been sub-$300k about 3 years ago, and that it's higher than he's ever seen it here. He's in a slightly trendy area of Charlotte though.
 
kaiser715 said:
I talked about self-contractors with with a few of the subs on our house. It works like this: Our GC charged cost plus. The plus was 10% markup on labor and materials. The subs I talked to said that basically, when they do something for an owner/builder/self-GC, they upcharge 20-25% over what they would charge one of the GC's they regularly work for. Part of that is kind of a volume discount, part is because an owner/builder always has screw-ups...wrong materials, stuff not delivered yet, last minute delay because they aren't quite ready for that sub yet, etc.

So....pay a GC 10% markup, or go direct to the subs and pay them 20% more.

Sort of same with materials...doing odd stuff for myself and others, I usually spend a grand to a few grand on materials in any given year. A busy GC will be in the hundreds of thousands. They get better pricing.

Now, if you are doing a substantial part of the labor yourself, that is where you actually save money. But don't fool yourself there...years ago, friends of mine built a new house....they bragged up on doing a lot of the work themselves and how much money they saved. Talking further, I find that most of the work was stuff like cleaning the jobsite each day....minimum wage labor at best that a GC usually gets a flunky to do.
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My experience is the exact opposite of this, from talking to subs and seeing the bills that friends of mine have paid their contractor-- there is an extra 15-20% built into any quote you see since it's not like you're shopping around, there's a 90% chance you're just going to use whoever your gc suggests.
 
braxton357 said:
My experience is the exact opposite of this, from talking to subs and seeing the bills that friends of mine have paid their contractor-- there is an extra 15-20% built into any quote you see since it's not like you're shopping around, there's a 90% chance you're just going to use whoever your gc suggests.
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If that was a true "blank check" custom house I could see that. But most homebuilders know the market, know that their customers are going to shop around to different contractors, and that they have to price competitively to survive in the market. The almighty dollar per square foot. That probably all goes out the window when there is a boom and all the subs are 110% booked for the next 3 years.
 
New homes in Greenville NC are selling for $100/sf., some up to $120. No way in hell would I pay that for a garage/shop.

around here, for a modestly finished garage/shop, you are around $30/ft, depending on size, options, etc. I know Charlotte and Asheville area is higher priced, but not 3X higher.


For a garage/shop, grade work and foundation is easy to self perform. Same with interior finishes, doors, windows, etc.

Let subs pour concrete, Elec, plumbing, HVAC, roofing. Siding can be easy to do, just time consuming.
 
Of course (and no offense intended to our hosts here) but it's a garage-shop, why hire an architect? 8-12% fees for what, exactly? A house yes, but a garage? The biggest thing you probably have to worry about design-wise is making it fit in appearance wise if you are in that kind of neighborhood...at least blend if not built to match existing. Between you and the GC, you ought to be able to figure that out. Unless, of course, you are dealing with an HOA and architectural committee, for which an architect might very well earn his keep by dealing with committee approvals and running interference during the project.

A good draftsman can fix you up with a code-compliant and buildable set of drawings that will be more than adequate for permitting purposes. I have dozens and dozens of hours in the design of our house, but when I had my own drawings refined and finished, I took them to a draftsman and got 'official' plans drawn up for six hundred bucks.


----

Another thought I just had. How friendly to owner/builders is the local permit and inspections office?? Our county inspectors used to not be too nice, friendly, or helpful. Now, (and I just pulled construction and electrical permits last Friday) it seems as if they go out of their way to answer any questions, get the forms right, help with the process, etc. Used to be if you missed one dot on an application, they'd turn it down and not even say why...just a preview of what happened if you weren't up to par on an inspection. ("you failed, I won't say what's wrong, and better luck next time") And good luck scheduling an inspection and getting them to show up. Working men (GC's, trades) came first. They were real good with a few questions I had last week. (Of course, I wasn't asking stoopid questions like can I tie black to white and then ground it to the PEX).

I'd maybe schedule a meeting with permits/inspections to feel that out, maybe ask around to other owner/builders in the area. (Here, you can find online lists of permits issued, look for matching owner and contractor fields).
 
Fabrik8 said:
I'm just struggling with the fact that $120k would include only 10% markup, because I can't make that math work.
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That depends on how the GC quoted you.

I did cost plus on the house. Whatever the sub labor, materials, etc cost, I was paying 10% on top of that to the GC for managing the project. I assumed any risk...if it turned out truss package was 5k more than his estimate, guess who paid that 5k (plus 10%)?

If he quoted you a flat 120k for the project to completion, he might have another 10-15% (or more) in for padding for contingencies. So a total of 20-25% markup over actual cost. But in that case (at least with the builders I talked to), when priced that way, that was a done, finished, out the door price. They included the risk in their budgets.
 
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kaiser715 said:
Of course (and no offense intended to our hosts here) but it's a garage-shop, why hire an architect? 8-12% fees for what, exactly? A house yes, but a garage? The biggest thing you probably have to worry about design-wise is making it fit in appearance wise if you are in that kind of neighborhood...at least blend if not built to match existing. Between you and the GC, you ought to be able to figure that out. Unless, of course, you are dealing with an HOA and architectural committee, for which an architect might very well earn his keep by dealing with committee approvals and running interference during the project.
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It's not 8-12%, because it's not a house. I think it's a flat fee, I can't remember because it's been a few years and got shelved for a while.

I hired an architect because I don't want the garage to look like something that me and the GC had figured out. ;)
 
$120k seems ridiculously high, even in the Charlotte/Huntersville market.

You will come out ahead monetarily contracting it yourself, no matter what. The biggest challenge will be actually getting the subs to show up and then getting them to finish. When we built our first house in 2010-2011 (900 sqft living space over 24x24 garage), I contracted it myself, and it was about $80/sqft including grading, driveway, well, septic, etc. We just finished building my wife's house, paid a contractor 15% cost plus, and ended up well north of $150/sqft. All of the utilities and grading were already in place. I'm certain if I had contracted it myself, i would have saved at least $100k.

Let me summarize my thoughts on paying a contractor vs self contracting with this one simple statement: No one cares as much about your money as you do.
 
Or drive around and see who is out working at job sites and make contact and check their work out. I’d steer away from tract neighborhoods as those subs are usually production based and work fast but cheap. Those guys typically don’t have much time for a homeowner’s garage project.
 
i work for a GC and we primarily do cost plus, cost plus with a GMP. all of our estimates are open book as well as our cost. not saying all are that way but if we charge for something i have a ticket to back it up.

personally i think you are getting a highly inflated price for two reasons
1) they dont think your serious and just threw out a high number to scare you off so they dont have to deal with it
2) they are to busy doing bigger more profitable jobs and dont have the time to pull off them and do your smaller project
 
Loganwayne said:
i work for a GC and we primarily do cost plus, cost plus with a GMP. all of our estimates are open book as well as our cost. not saying all are that way but if we charge for something i have a ticket to back it up.

personally i think you are getting a highly inflated price for two reasons
1) they dont think your serious and just threw out a high number to scare you off so they dont have to deal with it
2) they are to busy doing bigger more profitable jobs and dont have the time to pull off them and do your smaller project
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And the guy that shows up with signed & sealed garage drawings is going to get the "PITA client" markup above the line.
 
shawn said:
And the guy that shows up with signed & sealed garage drawings is going to get the "PITA client" markup above the line.
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Yes yes they are.

I’m currently working on a small “favor” job to a local nonprofit and the guy that is the owners rep freaked out on me when he asked why the project management expected cost was about to be surpassed and we are 1/3 of the way though it. I told him calling me 3 times on Sunday every Sunday and having dang near daily meetings with him was in my budget.


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