D-6

[MetalCraftSolved]

OK lets try this, unfortunately I don't have easy access to a way to draw it out.

The control arms move up and down. Lets call this the Y dimension. However because they are on a pivot point, it's actually an arc - if you look at it from the front of the buggy, the outside of the wheel hub is farthest away from the differential when it is straight out. It is closer to the middle when at the highest and lowest points of travel. Lets call this view the Z dimension. There is no movement in X (hopefully!).

Now for a moment forget about the control arms and wheel hub and just think about that axle. It can bend in the X and Y dimensions. However this bending is bound at the center, in a circle. Imagine if that axle was in the differential and you held the shaft on teh other end of the CV in your hand and rotate it around clockwise. It's circular. but it also has an arc in the Z dimension just like the control arms do.
At the differential end, the arc centroid of the control arms and the arc of the axle shaft (in the Z domain) need to line up as well as possible. Commonly the axle one is much deeper in in order to minimize its movement.

The hub though is where it gets hard. The steering means the hub swivels, which means there is an extra dimension added that the control arms don't have. when the hub rotates, it actuallu puls the shaft out slightly, which changes its range of motion. So when the steering is at lock, the axle "cone" of rotation is different from when it is straight. and all of that must fit within the arc of the control arms.

It gets much worse b/c the steerin garms also have their own arc... and the point of pivot for the steering arms may not match the point of pivot for the control arms or the axle. Like in your drawing b/c the ram is wide. You get binding and breakage when all of these arcs intersect and things break when you go past the overlapping portions.
In an ideal magical fairyland world, all 3 have pivots in the same point, which is the very center of the vehicle. But the Second Law of Physics prevents that.

My prior use of the term "square" was incorrect, its more of a line b/c the control arms don't move in the X dimension.

I think I understand where your coming from with the axle cone. I intentionally eliminated that movement from my equation. The "King Pin" where the knuckle rotates is in direct alignment with the center of the CV bell. I didn't want to see any variation fore, and aft with the axle. It is set on a strictly vertical plane.

I'm under the impression that the variables in my equation consist of the shaft angle, caster angle, the steering angle, and the droop camber angle. Simplified now to 4 variables. I should probably keep an eye on the bump camber angle but, I think it's going to be irrelevant.

 

[MetalCraftSolved]

Well, the good news is that the limited steering angle will allow me to fit this engine. The biggest thing I've been worried with the whole time. I've been eyeing this Track Attack LT5 since the get go, but I didn't really have a good grasp on how it would fit in the car til now. I think I'll be able to see over the top of it, which was a big concern for me personally. It will block some vision, which I don't really like. The water pump pulley, and the alternator sit far passenger side of the engine, but up high which is good. I will also have to figure out exactly where to mount a high-flow power steering pump. I know Wide Open Design now has a power steering pump mount, that goes under where this water pump is. They bolt that particular piece to the passenger side of the block. I've welded a number of dash -16 fittings on LS water pumps, so I'm not worried about getting water "in and out" of the water pump. I tried to call Katech for a minute to pick their brain. They were closed, but since I've been sitting here for a couple hours glaring at this engine, I can tell it's uses a dry sump oil system. I've only ever worked on one dry sump trophy truck. I had to make it lose 750 pounds. It had a huge dry sump oil can system that we ended up taking off the car. I should probably look at what is all involved with this dry sump system, and what is all involved with the inter-cooler I now have to mount on the car for the super charger. The only super-charged system I ever had to build was for the Blower buggy, and it had a water tank in front of the fuel cell, that was filled with anti-freeze. That tank had an electric bilge pump like you use on a boat. That bilge pump sat inside of a "coolant tank" - the coolant ran through a 6x20 or something, radiator with no fans. Knowing the difference between how I would drive this vehicle, and how I would drive the blower buggy, I'm thinking I may need to give this supercharger a radiator with a fan? It would be interesting to hear some throw back on the inter-cooler, and dry sump system needed for this engine.

The Katech Track Attack LT5 Engine

Capacity: 388 cu in
Compression Ratio 10.3:1
Max Power: 1159hp
Max Torque: 1063 lb-ft
Cylinder Head: Katech LT4/LT5 CNC-Ported with Competition Valve Job
Piston: Diamond
Intake: Katech CNC-Ported LT5 or Magnuson TBVS 2650 Supercharger

 

[shawn]

I repeat that I think he has a good heart. I just havent figured out how to reconcile the two.

It's called cognitive dissonance.

On the one hand, you want to think somebody "has a good heart".

On the other hand, you have a guy that tapped 3/8" coarse holes into .120 wall tubing and bolted up seatbelts that were expected to restrain a customer's children.

 

[Bebop]

Everyone know he should have used fine threads

 

[MetalCraftSolved]

Katech says that engine is reliable for off road racing. The scavenge pumps are internal, so I don't have to run an external oil pump. It's a drop in package for $30,800. I have to get a Corvette ZO6 dry sump can. The water pump for the supercharger is also internal. I have to get a Corvette ZO6 intercooler, and can run a coolant reservoir if I choose. They said it's pretty easy to attach fans to those intercoolers if needed. Probably looking at running a Holley Dominator ECU system.

 

[Jody Treadway]

Everyone know he should have used fine threads

20 > 13

 

[braxton357]

Lol it's one thing to draw up your dream buggy, it's another to waste some vendors time asking questions about some parts you never intend to buy.

 

[Jody Treadway]

Lol it's one thing to draw up your dream buggy, it's another to waste some vendors time asking questions about some parts you never intend to buy.

BTW- Thanks for dropping off your dually yesterday, I mean today, for me to re-gear. I'm sure vendors hate when someone just wastes their time

 

[Bebop]

Katech says that engine is reliable for off road racing. The scavenge pumps are internal, so I don't have to run an external oil pump. It's a drop in package for $30,800. I have to get a Corvette ZO6 dry sump can. The water pump for the supercharger is also internal. I have to get a Corvette ZO6 intercooler, and can run a coolant reservoir if I choose. They said it's pretty easy to attach fans to those intercoolers if needed. Probably looking at running a Holley Dominator ECU system.

Dominator ? Why that over a HP for the intended use ?

20 > 13

The math is correct.

 

[MetalCraftSolved]

Dominator ? Why that over a HP for the intended use ?

Do what? The guy at Katech said that most guys they had were running the Dominator. I don't know. They said it fires good. The ECU system is not exactly within the realm of my knowledge. What the hell is an HP? If you guys can't explain it to me, I'll have to call some asshole who's gonna tell me to use a different engine builder.

 

[MetalCraftSolved]

This guy gets me close to believing the HP is substantial. Probably need to take a 17 minute ride down to Denton N.C. and ask the guys at TKM what ECU to run with that Supercharged LT5.

 

[mcconnell]

Maybe I missed it, but is someone bank rolling this build or do you have a cool $200k burning a hole in your pocket?

I’m all for brainstorming and day dreaming, but it seems like you’re putting a ton of time in modeling stuff that is super expensive to buy or build. Maybe dial it back and set the world on fire with your second successful build, rather than your first.

 

[RatLabGuy]

I see no problem with an all "virtual" build, exploring everything out on paper like this.
Why not? It costs nothing but time, and give opportunity to bounce ideas around and get feedback,
Hell for our student robotics team we make 'em CAD things out before buying and building.

If you feel like your time is wasted reading, then treat it like any other thread and choose whether to spend you time on it.

The real problem is that the logical flow of what is bein gworked on is all over the place, and a lot of things bein greinvented that other people have already solved.

 

[Ron]

I'd pay money to drink a beer or 12 with @MetalCraftSolved and @XJsavage ..the conversation would be enlightening fo sho.
Id need Dre @Paul to interpret for me though

 

[MetalCraftSolved]

the logical flow of what is bein gworked on is all over the place

Not going to argue with that. Definitely taking the hot thoughts as they role in. Gonna go with the concept that we're in the information storm til a "front to back" initial layout of the D-6 is complete. Then it's going to be a complete front to back refinement. I feel the need to have 2 batteries using the Blue Sea switch. I feel like if the alternator goes out, we've got enough battery to finish a race, or at least get to a pit stop where we can switch it out.

I was going to mount the oil cooler, the transmission cooler, the inter-cooler ( heat ex-changer - whatever you want to call it ) before I got to the batteries, but like I said. Right now, I'm rolling with whats hot on the brain. I've never had an optima failure, but I did spin the alternator on the 4467 the first time I drove it, and broke the transfer case. That alternator was immediately replaced with the same OEM part, and I don't think it's ever failed since.

Not to mention..... I have to settle on analog gauges, digital gauges, or a race pack digital dash. Need to be able to "clearly" read oil pressure, and water temp, and volt meter at a glance. The rest is extra.

 

[MetalCraftSolved]

Definitely going to take a shot at getting this list of parts drawn up, and strategically placed on the car before the weekend is over. aaand, go....

-2 batteries
-1 battery selector switch
-1 heat ex-changer
-1 engine oil cooler
-1 transmission oil cooler
-1 off road radiator
-3 at a glance digital gauges with warning lights
-Blue sea systems push button switches
-1 touch screen off road GPS
-1 Bomber transmission shifter

Still have to find a multi-sound horn siren, forward facing lights, red blue and yellow rear facing lights, and I'm sure a whole bunch of other stuff I haven't thought of yet.

 

[shawn]

This thread is the equivalent of the guy with the shitbox that needs brakes, leaks several fluids, doesn't start reliably, and desperately needs new shocks and a suspension refresh, but took out a payday loan to buy a Walmart subwoofer and get the windows tinted.

 

[braxton357]

This thread is the equivalent of the guy with the shitbox that needs brakes, leaks several fluids, doesn't start reliably, and desperately needs new shocks and a suspension refresh, but took out a payday loan to buy a Walmart subwoofer and get the windows tinted.

Reminds me of circling a bunch of shit I'd never get in the cabela's catalog for Christmas.

 

[MetalCraftSolved]

This is my new Driver. His name is "Doc. Brown" from "Back to the future"

He is 6 feet tall. He is going to help me mount all of the driving instruments. He has to be able to see all of his visual instruments (gauges/GPS) without moving his head. All of his buttons have to be within arm reach with his shoulders strapped to the seat as if his racing harness was tight. The Ultra 4 rule book says he needs 3 inches of space between the top of this helmet, and the roof, or roof tube.

It looks like he will receive a 3 inch taller roof line, and his seat may get moved to the rear about 3 inches.

 

[Ron]

That settles it.
Its a dream build.
I held out hope it could be a real build for a crazy doc with a HUGE heart.
But he ain't 6'...and no one else has the right combo of rich, caring and crazy

 

[WARRIORWELDING]

Meh! Dream or not I completely dig this thread.
Two reasons.
The graphic usage and design media is awesome. I was enrolled to the Autocad Institute in Phoenix AR right out of high school. Maturity and money crushed that dream.
Also the actual raised and somewhat answered convo has been great for hypothetical and real world knowledge of the craft.

@MetalCraftSolved. Keep at it. I'm subbed to what ever end this graphic work explores.

 

[jeepinmatt]

Reminds me of circling a bunch of shit I'd never get in the cabela's catalog for Christmas.

Service Merchandise catalog was the coolest thing ever when I was a wee lad.

 

[MetalCraftSolved]

About 12 hours at the helm today. Doc, and I got about 8 hours in today after lunch getting the chassis adjusted to him, and the new radiator while taking the time to knock out some little things out along the way. Maybe tomorrow we can cut loose on mounting some of these other parts that are already picked out, and they're already drawn up.

 

[YotaOnRocks]

Your coping work is dead on, with no gaps at the joints your final welds should be very stout. Are you using a tube notcher or chop saw and grinder.

 

[MetalCraftSolved]

Your coping work is dead on, with no gaps at the joints your final welds should be very stout. Are you using a tube notcher or chop saw and grinder.

Thanks.
These day's for tube work I have a chop saw, a Tannewitz model TR-4014W bandsaw, a JMR tube notcher. A modified bench grinder on a mobile stand, that has a 2" inch x 36" inch belt grinder attachment on left side, and switch out 7 inch & 4.5 inch flap discs on the right side. That stand also has another bench grinder mounted 180 degrees opposite side, which has a 6 inch wire wheel on the left side, and a polishing style 1 inch x 6 inch flap wheel on the right side.

I'm trying to keep the intensified hand notched tube ends to a minimum for reproduction purposes. Reproduction was another reason we needed to get the roof higher than where it was originally drawn. It looks like there are about 12 intensified hand notched tube ends on the chassis right now. Over the years I bet I've ran a thousand miles of tubing through a dozen different tubing benders. For this car, I've decided we will use a brand new Rogue Fabrication Model-600. Now that we've introduced the use of CAD to basically everything in the build process, I strongly feel that this particular bender is the one that will allow me to "one shot" these bent tubes. Their base model comes with a cupped aluminum "block" that the tube slides on throughout it's pull. This block will be upgraded to a roller die that the tube will "roll on" throughout it's pull. The tube locking mechanism allows for an extremely precise start bend every single pull, and puts out a seemingly perfect, non-deformed roll. The same locking mechanism allows for perfect clocking of the tube also. I used to think this bender was awkward, but present day I'm convinced it might be the most accurate manual bender on the market.