few coilover questions

marty79

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Location
Newton, NC
I'm not getting the whole (lower spring should be longer than top) on dual rate coilover,: top spring would be suspension travel height...The best video I've seen to really grasp the majority of info on the setup of the coilovers did not mention different length springs...only the diff rates and how to figure it all out but not lengths.
I feel like I've read up on too much info and I think I'm more confused with too many setup options and tuning and use-abilities and trying to correct that by sticking with the basics but, having a hard time "forgetting" all the other stuff I read (hope that made sense).
I realize most of the time it's a trial to setup the initial and might have to change springs after initial setup but still need to get a pretty accurate figure for length of springs to look for for the "mock-up/test" install. thank you for any advise
 
Do you have an accurate weight at each of the four corners? Without that a lot of what people will try to learn you won’t matter. Reason why it takes a few iterations to get the spring rates right.

If I had to guess each spring length probably has to do more with how much droop your suspension will allow. As mentioned you always want the coils to be under a bit of preload even under droop.

Experts feel free to school me too if I am off base.

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been there already (still up on my tabs lol)
Do you have an accurate weight at each of the four corners?
no but I'm going by the weight of the front end that I've found accurately enough on many posts to know the "close enough" corner weights (total front weight /x2) and using that to input in the calculator to get me in the ball park of what rate I need to start with.
I understand that the longer spring on bottom helps with little more preload vs using same size spring top and bottom and from little reading it seems for a heavier build (such as this cummins truck), it's a pretty good idea/recommendation to run longer spring on bottom to help with the load of compression.
 
I understand that the longer spring on bottom helps with little more preload vs using same size spring top and bottom and from little reading it seems for a heavier build (such as this cummins truck), it's a pretty good idea/recommendation to run longer spring on bottom to help with the load of compression.

You seem to be assuming that a longer spring is a higher spring rate because it's longer? Am I understanding that correctly?
 
I realize most of the time it's a trial to setup the initial and might have to change springs after initial setup but still need to get a pretty accurate figure for length of springs to look for for the "mock-up/test" install. thank you for any advise

1- there is no "might" and "most"...its always a trial set up (outside of Nascar or million dollar builds) and you will change springs. You "might" change them 5+ times.

no but I'm going by the weight of the front end that I've found accurately enough on many posts to know the "close enough" corner weights

This will very likely cause you additional heart burn. I know you said in the other thread you were going to slow down on this build and plan. This is a great place to do so. Find a set of scales and measure the corner weight....I suspect (strongly) it wont be equal side to side on that truck.
 
Find a set of corner weights and weigh the truck now. That will get you in the ball park on spring rates to start with. Then get ready for a rollercoaster of what should work on paper and according to the math to not work out exactly as it should. Tuning all shocks is an imperfect system and each rig and application is different.

A good listen would be to sit down and fire up The Talent Tank Podcast and the episode with Wayne Israelson. Its a pretty humbling, and educating episode with stories and advice straight from the person who tunes some of the fastest desert and rock sports machines on the planet.
 
Years ago at least, the main reasoning for the lower bottom coil was to keep the dual rate slider wholly on the shock body at all times. If you promise not to break them I have a set of corner scales that go high enough to weigh that truck you can use. Either way though, Fish is right-- rather than having an aneurysm, weigh the truck then call accutune and tell them it's a dodge 4 link front with ~1300 lbs per corner sprung and sell me the correct shocks/springs.
 
You seem to be assuming that a longer spring is a higher spring rate because it's longer? Am I understanding that correctly?
That's kinda what I was thinking. Right now I'm taking a break cause I've got so much running through my head and drawing yeah, I'm a little confused and overwhelmed lol.
Years ago at least, the main reasoning for the lower bottom coil was to keep the dual rate slider wholly on the shock body at all times. If you promise not to break them I have a set of corner scales that go high enough to weigh that truck you can use. Either way though, Fish is right-- rather than having an aneurysm, weigh the truck then call accutune and tell them it's a dodge 4 link front with ~1300 lbs per corner sprung and sell me the correct shocks/springs.
Wow I'm shocked with your response, being honest. I'd love any help with the scales since you and everyone says it's a must to get right on point. I've been under impression within several hundred pounds was ok to get in the ballpark to start and then with some coils in the shocks, I've learned I can measure exact springs then. 1500-1700 per corner is what I was going with, closer to 1700 to account for bumper and lights.
Thanks for the input guys, very much!
 
Find a set of corner weights and weigh the truck now. That will get you in the ball park on spring rates to start with. Then get ready for a rollercoaster of what should work on paper and according to the math to not work out exactly as it should. Tuning all shocks is an imperfect system and each rig and application is different.
Yes I have at least accepted this lol
 
If you're going to corner weight it, just use that as a front/rear weight and average the left/right weights. Unless you have a scale pad leveling system, and then you can use actual corner weights. If you're just putting scales on concrete, average the left/right because height variation will mess up the actual corner readings.
 
average the left/right because height variation will mess up the actual corner readings.
I'm not trying to be argumentative but I'm not really understanding why weighing the "exact" weight is such a big deal to get a starting point. From videos and plenty of reading, I've gotten to understand as long as I'm close with the "weight" I can use that to get a descent enough reference point for the spring rate and since you end up changing the springs at least once or twice (maybe more apparently), what's the difference in being off a little on the spring rate.
I see the method of how to "correctly" calculate the exact sprung weight once I have the shocks mounted with some kind of spring that's in the "ballpark" and then I'm able to truly calculate exact sprung weight with specific compression measurements to net me the exact spring rates then..which will also tell me other factors with those compression/extended measurements of spring lengths and such....or did I misinterpret this stuff
 
I've gotten starting spring rate numbers of 200/450 was the numbers from the calculator and their little "recommendation" add on to the numbers for "dual rate" springs
 
I'm not trying to be argumentative but I'm not really understanding why weighing the "exact" weight is such a big deal to get a starting point. From videos and plenty of reading, I've gotten to understand as long as I'm close with the "weight" I can use that to get a descent enough reference point for the spring rate and since you end up changing the springs at least once or twice (maybe more apparently), what's the difference in being off a little on the spring rate.

You're not being argumentative.
That's my point though; don't get caught up in scale readings if you don't have a leveled scale pad setup. People tend to go down the rabbit hole without understanding the limitations of how the data was collected. That's why I'm saying that you should take a front axle weight and a rear axle weight with the corner scales (because everything comes out tidy when you have a good track-to-wheelbase ratio like a truck), and just average the front readings and average the rear readings to get the corner weights. That's plenty close enough.
 
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I'm not trying to be argumentative but I'm not really understanding why weighing the "exact" weight is such a big deal to get a starting point. From videos and plenty of reading, I've gotten to understand as long as I'm close with the "weight" I can use that to get a descent enough reference point for the spring rate and since you end up changing the springs at least once or twice (maybe more apparently), what's the difference in being off a little on the spring rate.
I see the method of how to "correctly" calculate the exact sprung weight once I have the shocks mounted with some kind of spring that's in the "ballpark" and then I'm able to truly calculate exact sprung weight with specific compression measurements to net me the exact spring rates then..which will also tell me other factors with those compression/extended measurements of spring lengths and such....or did I misinterpret this stuff

I think what he’s saying is that you should average the left and right side of the axle. As the truck leans left to right, the weight can be distributed differently.

For example:
Driver front weighs 1350#
Passenger front weighs 1250#
Average the two and call it 1300#

That way you don’t find yourself putting different springs and rates left to right.
 
I think what he’s saying is that you should average the left and right side of the axle. As the truck leans left to right, the weight can be distributed differently.

For example:
Driver front weighs 1350#
Passenger front weighs 1250#
Average the two and call it 1300#

That way you don’t find yourself putting different springs and rates left to right.

Mostly differences in scale pad height. For example, if you have 450 lb/in rear springs, and you have 4 scales on concrete, and the concrete is 1/8 or 3/6 or whatever height delta between scale pads across the footprint of the truck (instead of being completely flat), the individual scales could show 50-100+ pound error pretty easily, potentially more depending on how height deltas combine. That's why averaging scale readings per axle is about the best you can do, unless you have a leveling scale pad setup and a transit laser to set them up (that's what race teams do). Again, you can read total vehicle weight (sum of 4), and total axle weight, but anything else you derive is just fooling yourself with accuracy that you don't actually have. And yes, a flexible chassis tends to twist and fudge some of those things a bit, but then you're just throwing other springs into the mix because the chassis is a spring. Anyway, it's best to understand the limitations of data.
 
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I appreciate the help on the "weighing" thing guys, I do but I think I'm going to now focus on finding some used springs or get prepared to order, from Accutune, the lowers since they allow "free" exchange. It was offered, but I don't feel too good borrowing things from people here being that I don't have a good track record on here already...last thing I need is more shame to my name for something somehow going wrong. I've gotten close enough with the 450 lower spring rate that it will be plenty for mockup and to get me where I can order them and install. Still unsure weather to use 14" or 16" lower springs though...no definitive answer on that yet
from Accutune: (this is what I'm trying to learn about and figure out)
Lower springs face two issues that can be resolved by selecting longer springs. First is that on many shocks the springs aren’t long enough, and the body isn’t threaded far enough for the coilover spring slider to engage the dual rate nuts early enough in the travel. When the coilover dual rate nuts are able to engage properly the lower spring collapses a lot more than the upper spring and the lower spring can go solid before the shocks are fully collapsed. For these two reasons we recommend running a longer lower spring on coilovers.
 
None of this matters. Youve got 10"+ travel and worn out springs with inconsistent tire pressure. Also, drivers side will be heavier because the diff housing and steering column are on that side. And years of ass sweat in the driver's seat.

Just use the 7600lb weight from the other thread, 3000lbs for the rear, 4600 for the front. Minus unsprung weight, you're at 2450 rear, 3900 front.

Or spend a bunch of time and effort weighing and checking, and then ruin it all with some other ignorant halfassery.
:popcorn:
 
The primary spring (bottom) should be 2” longer than the shock travel so that the dual rate stop nuts are in a useable section of travel in their threads on the shock body.

Generally these crossover rings/dual rate stops are around 2” above the dual rate slider at ride height.

Not all shock bodies are fully threaded, but you want the dual rate slider to at least have a chance to his the dual rate stop rings. The easiest way to have them have a chance at this, is with 2” longer than shock travel main springs, and secondary springs equal to shock travel. This doesn’t work for all shock manufacturers. Some shocks require an even 2” shorter upper spring. Brand, age, size, and shock series/model are all different. This is the closest generalization there is.

You tune the height of these crossover rings to set the position at which the spring rate steps up from the combined rate(both springs active) to only the main spring active.

This can help with body roll/corner handling/bump and g-out control, etc.

Here is an example of spring rate math.

Let’s say you have 250/350 lbs springs. (Primary * secondary)/(primary + secondary)

At ride height the combined rate is 146 lbs per inch. Once the suspension is compressed and the dual rate slider hits the crossover rings, the secondary spring is no longer active.

The spring rate increases to the main rate of 350 lbs per inch.

The basics:

In the same example, let’s say at ride height on a 14” shock, 7” shaft exposed at ride height.

The 250 lbs 14” spring is compressed 5”, and the 16” 350lbs spring is compressed 3.5”.

The actual load at the shock is 1250lbs.

This can also be confirmed by adding the spring compression amounts, and multiply by the combined rate.
8.5” compressed x 146 lbs = 1246 lbs at shock. The 4 lbs “load at shock” difference is due to a rounding issue with decimal points and doesn’t matter.

(this removes the trig problem involving shock angles, removes necessity to have corner weights, removes needs for accurate upsprung weights).

If to get that desired suspension at 7/7 split at ride height or the shock at center of its travel at ride height, required 2” or preload, then you have the correct spring weights.

If you need more than 2” of preload, to achieve that desired ride height position, then the springs are too soft.

If you needed less than 2” of preload to achieve that ride height, then the springs are too stiff.

Variances in weight from left to right are a non issue as you can easily adjust preload by small increments to make up for the difference.

As I have stated several times. Rent/buy/borrow some correct length whatever known rate springs and install. Set to ride height, and measure actual preload. If you do this, and post the results, variables, and measurements I will be glad to help you with the math.

Or

Do some math, or use my calculator or any of the 10 others on the internet, to calculate to correct rate springs with the correct preload and desired ride height position.

This is the easiest, least labor and thought intensive, and probably cheapest way to get the correct springs.
 
The primary spring (bottom) should be 2” longer than the shock travel so that the dual rate stop nuts are in a useable section of travel in their threads on the shock body.

Generally these crossover rings/dual rate stops are around 2” above the dual rate slider at ride height.

Not all shock bodies are fully threaded, but you want the dual rate slider to at least have a chance to his the dual rate stop rings. The easiest way to have them have a chance at this, is with 2” longer than shock travel main springs, and secondary springs equal to shock travel. This doesn’t work for all shock manufacturers. Some shocks require an even 2” shorter upper spring. Brand, age, size, and shock series/model are all different. This is the closest generalization there is.

You tune the height of these crossover rings to set the position at which the spring rate steps up from the combined rate(both springs active) to only the main spring active.

This can help with body roll/corner handling/bump and g-out control, etc.

Here is an example of spring rate math.

Let’s say you have 250/350 lbs springs. (Primary * secondary)/(primary + secondary)

At ride height the combined rate is 146 lbs per inch. Once the suspension is compressed and the dual rate slider hits the crossover rings, the secondary spring is no longer active.

The spring rate increases to the main rate of 350 lbs per inch.

The basics:

In the same example, let’s say at ride height on a 14” shock, 7” shaft exposed at ride height.

The 250 lbs 14” spring is compressed 5”, and the 16” 350lbs spring is compressed 3.5”.

The actual load at the shock is 1250lbs.

This can also be confirmed by adding the spring compression amounts, and multiply by the combined rate.
8.5” compressed x 146 lbs = 1246 lbs at shock. The 4 lbs “load at shock” difference is due to a rounding issue with decimal points and doesn’t matter.

(this removes the trig problem involving shock angles, removes necessity to have corner weights, removes needs for accurate upsprung weights).

If to get that desired suspension at 7/7 split at ride height or the shock at center of its travel at ride height, required 2” or preload, then you have the correct spring weights.

If you need more than 2” of preload, to achieve that desired ride height position, then the springs are too soft.

If you needed less than 2” of preload to achieve that ride height, then the springs are too stiff.

Variances in weight from left to right are a non issue as you can easily adjust preload by small increments to make up for the difference.

As I have stated several times. Rent/buy/borrow some correct length whatever known rate springs and install. Set to ride height, and measure actual preload. If you do this, and post the results, variables, and measurements I will be glad to help you with the math.

Or

Do some math, or use my calculator or any of the 10 others on the internet, to calculate to correct rate springs with the correct preload and desired ride height position.

This is the easiest, least labor and thought intensive, and probably cheapest way to get the correct springs.
thanks you very much, that was in the ballpark of my understanding but now I'm more confident in my understanding
 
I want to swap to coilovers one day too. This thread is very informative.

@marty79 the way I'm seeing the information being tossed around is much like setting up gears (in my world). Sure you can just use the old shim and hope the pattern is good enough. Or, you can use the proper measuring devices, do the math, do the research and all but nail it from the start. Aside from being efficient, you also be come proficient and gain knowledge.

These guys giving you (and the rest of us) advice know what they're talking about!
 
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