Grinding gears to clear cross shaft

Discussion in 'Axles/Suspension/Tires' started by Tradarcher, May 13, 2005.

  1. Tradarcher

    Tradarcher Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Location:
    Creedmoor, NC
    I've always wondered how much grinding it would take so when I got an experimental D30 that I wanted to remove a locker from I gave it a shot. This is how much grinding is required to remove the cross shaft from a LP TJ D30 with 3.73 gears. Despite what Randy's Ring and Pinion has to say about grinding them to clear the cross shaft I think this is a little too much. Maybe he was refering to other carriers and not the D30. I don't know of any others that require the ring gear be removed to get the cross shaft out. However this is what it took to get the shaft out. I chose this side because I only had to grind one tooth. The other side would have required grinding two teeth a near equal amount. Lower gear ratios might require more than one tooth. It sure would make trail swaps easier if a lunchbox locker gets trashed and spider gears need to be put back in.

    What do you think?

    [​IMG]
  2. grapehead

    grapehead Active Member

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    Mar 21, 2005
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    Raleigh
    d44 is the same way.

    i too was curious though, thanks for trying it out.
  3. shawn

    shawn Witty Title Goes Here Administrator

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    Mar 13, 2005
    Location:
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    8.8, too. Lots of axles, actually.

    And on one like the 8.8, you have no choice but to grind the gear, as you need the pin out to pull the c-clips.

    Just don't ever EVER grind the center pin. They make special ones with one flat edge, but they're all case-hardened, so don't try to make your own.
  4. hobie

    hobie Sub-par Administrator

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    Mar 11, 2005
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    Raleigh, NC
    So, that amount of grind isn't an issue? (That's what Kevin's really asking)...
  5. rattlecanpaint

    rattlecanpaint Well-Known Member

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    Apr 18, 2005
    Location:
    Winston Salem
    Is ther any way to remove the ring gear and just let it set on the carrier first? Or do you have to have the diff out of the axle to get the gear off?
  6. BigWheelBob

    BigWheelBob New Member

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    hubert,n.c.
    As far as I know, you shouldnt have to ever grind on any Dana teeth. That trick is used for c clip rear diffs, such as the 8.8.
  7. Tradarcher

    Tradarcher Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Location:
    Creedmoor, NC
    No you don't HAVE to grind them. The other option is to pull the carrier and then remove the ring gear then do your work and then put the ring gear back on and then put the carrier back in. Easier said than done especially on the trail where you might not have an air wrench, torque wrench, locktight, and a method for getting the carrier out. The last time I pulled mine I used a chain and a bottle jack.

    rcp, pulling the ring gear with the carrier still in the case would be difficult because of the pinion gear and would still be a huge headache.
  8. rattlecanpaint

    rattlecanpaint Well-Known Member

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    gotch kinda forgot about that pinion thing... :rolleyes:
  9. wbcarver

    wbcarver New Member

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    Mar 29, 2005
    Location:
    Danville, VA
    I guess what I really don't understand is what are you saving by doing this?

    4 Carrier cap bolts and the carrier comes out.

    I mean what are we talking about doing here?
    A trail install of a lock rite or something?


    :confused:

    Otherwise I would just pull the carrier and work on it on the bench or in the shade on a nice comportable large rock.
  10. Tradarcher

    Tradarcher Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Location:
    Creedmoor, NC
    I guess it's only really beneficial on the trail where you blow a lunch box locker and have to replace it with the spider gears. If you don't grind then you have to pull the carrier which means jack up the vehicle, pull the tires, pull the calipers, pull the rotors, pull the hub bolts, pull the hubs, pull the axles, pull the carrier, remove the ring gear bolts, remove the ring gear, make the change to the internals and then put it all back nice and clean and torgue it correctly. All this is easier said than done and these things will give you problems. Consider what it's like doing these things in the garage much less on the trail.
    1) Hub bolts and hubs are a PITA if they have not been removed in a while and the hub was not re-assembled with anti-seize.
    2) The carrier doesn't usually pop out. I normally have to use a chain and a jack to pull my carrier. A winch is helpful and I've heard of a way to jam a rag in the pinion and get the carrier out but that requires disconnecting the rear driveshaft.
    3) Ring gear bolts are put in with thread locker and torqued to about 75lbs. It's hard to break them loose without a vise (carry one of those on the trail) to hold the carrier or an impact wrench. Re-torquing them to proper spec without a bench vise is nearly impossible.
    4) If the carrier was hard coming out it will be hard going back in.
    5) Axle tubes usually have alot of dirt mixed with diff oil in them which gets on the end of the shaft when you try to re-install it. Sometimes boogers up the seal and introduces dirt to the diff.
    6) If the calipers close up on you then you need a c clamp to open them up. Anybody usually carry a c-clamp on the trail?
    7) Most everything that comes off has a torque spec. I suppose everyone carries a torque wrench with them on the trail?
    Elapsed time on all that work is subjective but I'd like to see the best of them do it in under an hour. With the tooth ground I think changing out a locker or spiders would take about 15 minutes.

    BTW, if this is too much ground off of one tooth I wonder if a little grinding on the tooth in conjunction with a little grinding on the cross pin would work? Better yet just get a full case locker. ;)
  11. mbalbritton

    mbalbritton #@$%!

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Location:
    Trinity, NC

    I think I'd rather drive our in 2wd, winch, get a strap or whatever when needed..... then fix it at teh shop and not grind my gears making the unit as a whole weaker anyway...... but that's just me.....
  12. Tradarcher

    Tradarcher Active Member

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    Mar 20, 2005
    Location:
    Creedmoor, NC
    I heard that! A little grinding won't hurt it though. I think this instance is on the verge of being too much.
  13. wbcarver

    wbcarver New Member

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    Mar 29, 2005
    Location:
    Danville, VA
    I agree with you - all that disassembly is a pain and time-consuming, especially on the trail, and most everything else you said -
    BUT..
    Not trying to beat a dead horse, but you still have to pull the shafts (and all the related hub and brake parts you mentioned) to replace the spiders or lunch box parts or...

    So I guess my point was that once you get all that apart anyway, you are only saving the work of pulling the carrier yes and ring gear.

    Here is a tip for the calipers. I haven't used a C-Clamp on calipers in years. Before you unbolt them, you can pry the piston back with a big screwdriver.

    And as far as what tools we carry on the trail. No I don't have a vise, but I don't carry a 4" grinder and 120v invertor either. ;)
  14. Tradarcher

    Tradarcher Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Location:
    Creedmoor, NC
    The diff in the pic is a TJ D30. It had a Powertrax No-Slip in it. I ground this tooth to remove the cross shaft so that I could get the No-Slip out. Not only did I take the locker out I also replaced the spider gears without removing the axle shafts/hubs. In retrospect I should have ground half as much on the gears and the other half on the cross shaft. Then the gears might have been salvageable. They are near worthless anyway (3.73).
  15. TheZenTree

    TheZenTree Active Member

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    Mar 20, 2005
    Location:
    Eastern NC
    Aren't pre-notched (for lack of a better term) cross-shafts available? I heard somewhere that grinding the stock cross-shafts weakens them, but the aftermarket ones go through some sort of hardening or strengthening process. By all means correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't that be easier and somewhat more worry-free?
  16. BRUISER

    BRUISER silent.. but deadly Moderator

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    Mar 17, 2005
    Location:
    Raleigh
    Well we all hear a lot of stuff on forums.. but who has actually ground a cross shaft and then broke it.. I bet NO ONE..

    MOre then likely it is being told by a company that make the notched cross shaft..

    I say until someone does it and it fails try it and see what happens..

    This is just a reminder that 95% of hobbiest really do not understand metal and its strenght we just read whatis posted and live by it.

    :)
  17. shawn

    shawn Witty Title Goes Here Administrator

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    Mar 13, 2005
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Um.... guess again.

    Cross shafts are case-hardened, and not very deeply at that.

    According to my bud at ARB, it is the #1 cause of broken lockers. And they don't warranty for it.
  18. Tradarcher

    Tradarcher Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Location:
    Creedmoor, NC
    I've read of at least one (first hand) instance of a broken cross shaft on an 8.8 that was ground by the owner. I think if I was going to run an 8.8 I'd go with the modified vendor cross shaft from a vendor.
  19. lomodyj

    lomodyj Active Member

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    Location:
    Out in the Middle
    Most everything in the carrier, including the carrier is a week point on the 8.8 this problem is easy to remedy...put in a full locker...
  20. BRUISER

    BRUISER silent.. but deadly Moderator

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    Location:
    Raleigh
    ok so you heard it from another person that works at a company...

    All I am saying is when someone says hey ya I tried it and it failed then I listen.. call me stubbern but most ideas come from some trying something and it working or not working....

    ask Kevin about using a XJ from driveshaft as a rear :)
  21. shawn

    shawn Witty Title Goes Here Administrator

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    Dude... just think about it. Do you know what case-hardening means?
  22. BRUISER

    BRUISER silent.. but deadly Moderator

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    Mar 17, 2005
    Location:
    Raleigh
    YES... I know what it means and what it does to metal...

    all I am saying is that in regards to this or other issues people always take the advice of internet people that usually have no I idea what they are talking about or tried it in past...

    Case in point: I have been told that my rear axle carrier or gears will never hold up with out a hardened center shaft in carrier and a mini spool...but yet I have had no problems with it at all.. and until I do it will stay and I will run it..
  23. TheZenTree

    TheZenTree Active Member

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    Location:
    Eastern NC
    For the record, I wasn't trying to give advice, just trying to clear something up and learn something in the process. :)

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